If the number that they owe is anywhere near $2,000,000 (which wouldn't surprise me.) then they have known for at least a year or two that WCOFF was probably not going to make it. They have been keeping this company going off of players rolling winnings forward and therefore not having to pay out all of their winnings.
What I would like to know is how did the affect what they were paying themselves to run the contest? If they slashed their salaries then it was bad business. If they were drawing out nice salaries for themselves during this then it was fraud. Maybe not fraud in the legal sense but it would be fraud in my eyes. Either way, they had to know this was a very real possibility long before it happened.
Wayne
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Because allowing rollover prizes made the cash flow manageable longer for Dustin, Jesse and WCOFF.
ding.ding. [/QUOTE]Wholeheartedly agree - and remember - not only were people "Rolling Over" - but the Lockout had people nervous about ponying up NEW money - That and the rumors that people were not getting paid, only made the thing spiral out of control - Like I said a few weeks ago - it was an absolute "Perfect Storm"...... -
W
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Because allowing rollover prizes made the cash flow manageable longer for Dustin, Jesse and WCOFF.
ding.ding. [/QUOTE]Wholeheartedly agree - and remember - not only were people "Rolling Over" - but the Lockout had people nervous about ponying up NEW money - That and the rumors that people were not getting paid, only made the thing spiral out of control - Like I said a few weeks ago - it was an absolute "Perfect Storm"...... -
W
The Magic Man...> Now you see 'em, Now you don't! - "Ohhhhhhh, it's a PROFIT deal!"
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Wasn't able to catch the ESPN program this morning due to church, but just skimmed through the postings. My take:
1) Bad management will eventually ruin any good business. These guys were terrible management and ruined it faster than anyone would have expected.
2) Players: NEVER, EVER roll over prize money for next season. Take the cash!
3) The fact that the WCOFF is also being sued for the missing $800,000 bridge loan bodes very badly for the players who are owed their money. As someone mentioned, the secured creditors are going to get paid first. Proceed cautiously!
1) Bad management will eventually ruin any good business. These guys were terrible management and ruined it faster than anyone would have expected.
2) Players: NEVER, EVER roll over prize money for next season. Take the cash!
3) The fact that the WCOFF is also being sued for the missing $800,000 bridge loan bodes very badly for the players who are owed their money. As someone mentioned, the secured creditors are going to get paid first. Proceed cautiously!
I never lost a game. I only ran out of time. Bobby Layne
Kid....if you're going to make it in this league, you're going to have to learn to drink. Bobby Layne
Kid....if you're going to make it in this league, you're going to have to learn to drink. Bobby Layne
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Cocktails and Dreams
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]While very much disappointed in Ian telling me twice that there was a "done deal" only to find out that it wasn't actually done and each time they found out more at the last second that was a bit "off" on the facts presented to them, I know him well and he is a guy you can shake hands with on an agreement and know it is good. The only other person in the industry I know well enough to say that about is Greg. Dave and Tom would pretty much qualify as well even though I don't know them quite as well. I do know Ian has huge plans and a great ideas so things most certainly will get interesting next year.
As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. And secondly, I wish that NFFC and FFPC would have been mentioned as reputable companies, especially since Ian specifically mentioned them as such twice each in his interview. First I heard about Lakeside considering getting involved in fantasy football. Found that surprising given how the first go around went.
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]While very much disappointed in Ian telling me twice that there was a "done deal" only to find out that it wasn't actually done and each time they found out more at the last second that was a bit "off" on the facts presented to them, I know him well and he is a guy you can shake hands with on an agreement and know it is good. The only other person in the industry I know well enough to say that about is Greg. Dave and Tom would pretty much qualify as well even though I don't know them quite as well. I do know Ian has huge plans and a great ideas so things most certainly will get interesting next year.
As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. And secondly, I wish that NFFC and FFPC would have been mentioned as reputable companies, especially since Ian specifically mentioned them as such twice each in his interview. First I heard about Lakeside considering getting involved in fantasy football. Found that surprising given how the first go around went.
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]While very much disappointed in Ian telling me twice that there was a "done deal" only to find out that it wasn't actually done and each time they found out more at the last second that was a bit "off" on the facts presented to them, I know him well and he is a guy you can shake hands with on an agreement and know it is good. The only other person in the industry I know well enough to say that about is Greg. Dave and Tom would pretty much qualify as well even though I don't know them quite as well. I do know Ian has huge plans and a great ideas so things most certainly will get interesting next year.
As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. And secondly, I wish that NFFC and FFPC would have been mentioned as reputable companies, especially since Ian specifically mentioned them as such twice each in his interview. First I heard about Lakeside considering getting involved in fantasy football. Found that surprising given how the first go around went. [/QUOTE]Chad I feel for you.Being able to play fantasy sports for living, something that most of us do as a hobby is really cool.But it just seems with Wcoff thing it has taken would should be something different and fun to make a living and turned it into a nightmare.Spending $50,000 on entry fees and they can't pay you.I have been scammed by turfwar.com and topfantasysports.com but that was just a few hundered bucks I can't imagine being screwed for $266,000.
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]While very much disappointed in Ian telling me twice that there was a "done deal" only to find out that it wasn't actually done and each time they found out more at the last second that was a bit "off" on the facts presented to them, I know him well and he is a guy you can shake hands with on an agreement and know it is good. The only other person in the industry I know well enough to say that about is Greg. Dave and Tom would pretty much qualify as well even though I don't know them quite as well. I do know Ian has huge plans and a great ideas so things most certainly will get interesting next year.
As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. And secondly, I wish that NFFC and FFPC would have been mentioned as reputable companies, especially since Ian specifically mentioned them as such twice each in his interview. First I heard about Lakeside considering getting involved in fantasy football. Found that surprising given how the first go around went. [/QUOTE]Chad I feel for you.Being able to play fantasy sports for living, something that most of us do as a hobby is really cool.But it just seems with Wcoff thing it has taken would should be something different and fun to make a living and turned it into a nightmare.Spending $50,000 on entry fees and they can't pay you.I have been scammed by turfwar.com and topfantasysports.com but that was just a few hundered bucks I can't imagine being screwed for $266,000.
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. [/QUOTE]LOL....I don't think anyone noticed that you didn't have time to get "dolled up" before the interview.
In all seriousness, I again think the 4 of you (Tony, Scott, and Ian) did a great job of being informative and simply presenting the facts.
It sucks what you all have to go through with this, and I hope you get SOMETHING out of this colossal mess.
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
However, Quinn seemed unprepared for the live questions from Bob Ley at the end. When Ley asked him if other contests were still running in this space he seemed to not know the answer (it would have been easy: 2). He did, however, inform folks that Ian Ritchie and likely Emil Kadlec are interested in returning to the space I agree 100%, and I feel Quinn just "winged it". If this would of been the Jerry Sandusky scandal, etc., I would bet he would of put more time into it.
As for Ian and Emil starting a new league, that is something I didn't know as well. There is always room for GOOD people starting a new contest in this space. I have never officially met Ian or Emil, but I have no reason to think either one wouldn't do the best they could to create a quality contest. [/QUOTE]As for the piece, I learned two things. One, I shouldn't have done an interview on a Tuesday morning about two hours before I wake up after a Monday night football hangover. [/QUOTE]LOL....I don't think anyone noticed that you didn't have time to get "dolled up" before the interview.
In all seriousness, I again think the 4 of you (Tony, Scott, and Ian) did a great job of being informative and simply presenting the facts.
It sucks what you all have to go through with this, and I hope you get SOMETHING out of this colossal mess.
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King of Queens
- Posts: 5262
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:00 pm
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Chad, great job on ESPN. One regret: I didn't get to finally learn the story behind the American Eagle baseball hat.
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Positives...
I thought the guys who were interviewed for the piece all did a great job. There was no ranting and raving. No profanity. No threats. The guys were great showing sincere disappointment without coming off like meat head goons. Fantasy sports for years was marginalized as a hobby for dorks and goons and in no way did the guys who were interviewed come off that way. They actually came off as professional, sensible, logical people who gave the fantasy sports player a nice image.
I liked seeing high stakes fantasy football get profiled in such a prominent way (even though this was a negative story) on such an important show.
Negatives...
I do not remember any mention of WHERE the money may have gone. There was obvious hinting that Dustin has the answers that he in a vanilla way tried to explain away with the quotes at the end of the piece. I would have liked to have seen more effort placed on WHERE the money might have gone. Was it pocketed? Was it wasted on fluff with the drafts? Was it blown on big name celebrities getting fees to play? Also, they mentioned the couple guys who were owed 6 figure sums (which is obviously the big story). How about a general sense of how many other players are owed money and how much?
Lastly, and most importantly. I do not understand how they can't hold up the other high stakes events that are running a good business who are paying out on time and in full. How can they not mention the NFFC and FFPC Yin to the WCOFF Yang?
To me, it is journalism 101 to say "Though the WCOFF was the biggest event and had been around the longest and had this colossal failure there are other events that have had zero complaints and provide the high stakes fantasy sports competitor a place to play...."
That was missing and needed to be there.
I thought the guys who were interviewed for the piece all did a great job. There was no ranting and raving. No profanity. No threats. The guys were great showing sincere disappointment without coming off like meat head goons. Fantasy sports for years was marginalized as a hobby for dorks and goons and in no way did the guys who were interviewed come off that way. They actually came off as professional, sensible, logical people who gave the fantasy sports player a nice image.
I liked seeing high stakes fantasy football get profiled in such a prominent way (even though this was a negative story) on such an important show.
Negatives...
I do not remember any mention of WHERE the money may have gone. There was obvious hinting that Dustin has the answers that he in a vanilla way tried to explain away with the quotes at the end of the piece. I would have liked to have seen more effort placed on WHERE the money might have gone. Was it pocketed? Was it wasted on fluff with the drafts? Was it blown on big name celebrities getting fees to play? Also, they mentioned the couple guys who were owed 6 figure sums (which is obviously the big story). How about a general sense of how many other players are owed money and how much?
Lastly, and most importantly. I do not understand how they can't hold up the other high stakes events that are running a good business who are paying out on time and in full. How can they not mention the NFFC and FFPC Yin to the WCOFF Yang?
To me, it is journalism 101 to say "Though the WCOFF was the biggest event and had been around the longest and had this colossal failure there are other events that have had zero complaints and provide the high stakes fantasy sports competitor a place to play...."
That was missing and needed to be there.
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
I thought that overall is was a decent show but as others have said it would have been nice for ESPN to have mentioned that the NFFC and the FFPC have always paid their winners.
Bauler Shot Caller
Thoughts On ESPN's Outside The Lines Show On WCOFF
Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
The players are unsecured creditors. The secured creditors get paid first, period. And the secured creditors say they are owed millions.
This reminds me of something Mr Denninger said recently about the MF Global situation...
"Recently Bank of America transferred a bunch of derivatives into their banking arm. "A bunch" means somewhere around $80 trillion worth.
Part of the bankruptcy "reform" law in 2005 placed derivative claims in front of depositors in a business failure - including a bank failure.
What JP Morgan is claiming in the MF Global case is that the derivative trade is entitled to preference in the case of MF Global over those who had cash there for safekeeping either as a margin deposit or just as free cash as you would hold free cash in a bank.
If a major bank blows up this very same claim, supported in existing Bankruptcy Law with the changes signed by George Bush in 2005, will be used to steal the entirety of your bank account!"
The older I get, the more I believe "screw everyone you can" IS a business model for many companies. Unsecured creditors (common man or woman) will always lose out...
[/QUOTE]Wish more people would finally see the light of things nowadays.
Nice write up GG.
quote:Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
The players are unsecured creditors. The secured creditors get paid first, period. And the secured creditors say they are owed millions.
This reminds me of something Mr Denninger said recently about the MF Global situation...
"Recently Bank of America transferred a bunch of derivatives into their banking arm. "A bunch" means somewhere around $80 trillion worth.
Part of the bankruptcy "reform" law in 2005 placed derivative claims in front of depositors in a business failure - including a bank failure.
What JP Morgan is claiming in the MF Global case is that the derivative trade is entitled to preference in the case of MF Global over those who had cash there for safekeeping either as a margin deposit or just as free cash as you would hold free cash in a bank.
If a major bank blows up this very same claim, supported in existing Bankruptcy Law with the changes signed by George Bush in 2005, will be used to steal the entirety of your bank account!"
The older I get, the more I believe "screw everyone you can" IS a business model for many companies. Unsecured creditors (common man or woman) will always lose out...
[/QUOTE]Wish more people would finally see the light of things nowadays.Nice write up GG.