Single-League Playoff Structure

[Jack_Bauer]

I think this debate comes down to philosophy.

In my mind, the league champion should be the best team at season's end. I played on a lot of sports teams, and I view that as the ultimate goal. Hope to be good enough to make the playoff, get better all season and then be the best team when the playoffs come around. That is how I structure my teams, and as a result how I believe leagues should be structured - teams that are reasonably close after an arbitrary cutoff date deserve to show what they can do in the playoff. Err on the side of inclusion and see who's a champion when it counts. CALI strongly thinks my Diamond team shouldn't be in the playoffs; meanwhile I think it's one of my most successful teams and a better team, and more deserving, than many of my other teams that ARE in the playoffs.

The counter-point to my philosophy is the "reward the regular-season" faction that believes the playoff is just a lottery, and the primary contest is the regular season. They don't want to lose to a "hot" team over 3 weeks, whereas I believe the whole season is simply a building block to see who is best during these 3 weeks. If there are more people in the contest that share the CALI-Chris philosophy, then the majority will oppose a change and I probably just need to compete in leagues that better suit me.

Finally, my apology to Cali for the derogatory remark early in this thread. MB arguments can be very frustrating when you're not getting your point across which pushed me over the edge a bit. I'd love to see the inclusionary/exclusionary playoff debate in any survey as well. I can write up the pros for inclusionary and it seems there are others that would take up the other side.

Regardless of what side of the playoff format debate one falls on, it is hard to see this post as anything other than very reasonable.

[ForLoveOfTheGame]

I think you'd make a better argument (talking Diamond league) if you suggested they just play it out for 16 weeks. I don't really see a reason you need to reset in leagues without an overall prize pool other than to make it winnable by all teams who get in because sometimes total points is over pretty early so you could play it out and see what happens (I personally would never reset these, if someone dominates a 10k buy in league he shouldn't have to reset to anything). No one ever talks about it but someone can CRUSH weeks 1-13 in overall total points then score the 2nd most points in the playoffs and not win a grand title worth 75k-150k even though he destroyed everyone from beginning to end. That's a real issue to me, not I finished 6th in points and didn't get in. I've got plenty of teams with 9+ wins this year or 3rd or 4th in points that didn't get in and I'm THRILLED about it, they didn't deserve it, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

I'd also suggest to your quote of "Hope to be good enough to make the playoff, get better all season and then be the best team when the playoffs come around" to not do that. Try to draft and be the best team out of the gate, you're going to win a lot more money that way.

Here is my suggestion. Why don't you ask Greg to start 2 Online Championships. One like it is now, hard to get in, have to beat freaking 367 teams to win the grand prize (total lottery). Then one where the top 4 or 5 or 6 teams get in, battle for the league prizes and have a 1 in about 932 chance at the grand prize. I have no doubt people would sign up for both

[Greg Ambrosius]

KJ, why did you delete the data in posts 2 and 3 that supported your argument from this year's Diamond League? It's hard to have an intelligent argument without those facts. Plus you were pushing Victory Points and how that would help this league, but again there's no data for people to look at.

For the record, in the NFFC Diamond you finished 1 game behind Paul Clein, who went 11-2. You had slightly more points than Paul, so you would have won the H2H title had Paul lost this week. You had the 6th most points in the league, Paul the 7th most points. In Victory Points, you showed that you would have edged Paul by 1 point. That's how close H2H was in this league no matter how you slice it, right? The other three teams that made the Championship Round obviously finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in total points. The team that probably has a gripe the most would be Peter Berall, who had a great team all year long and got squeezed out of the Championship Round by the H2H champion, which could have been you or Paul, right? Doesn't he have a bigger complaint of the setup?

I'm not trying to make any points either way, just asking you to again post those facts. Right now folks are just giving opinions and somehow the facts for the changes disappeared with the name calling. The substance part should return.

[kjduke]

I think you'd make a better argument (talking Diamond league) if you suggested they just play it out for 16 weeks. I don't really see a reason you need to reset in leagues without an overall prize pool other than to make it winnable by all teams who get in because sometimes total points is over pretty early so you could play it out and see what happens (I personally would never reset these, if someone dominates a 10k buy in league he shouldn't have to reset to anything). No one ever talks about it but someone can CRUSH weeks 1-13 in overall total points then score the 2nd most points in the playoffs and not win a grand title worth 75k-150k even though he destroyed everyone from beginning to end. That's a real issue to me, not I finished 6th in points and didn't get in. I've got plenty of teams with 9+ wins this year or 3rd or 4th in points that didn't get in and I'm THRILLED about it, they didn't deserve it, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

In one of my other high stakes leagues I led the league in points thru 13 weeks. In my opinion, it doesn't look deserving of a playoff spot at this point. Like I said, my philosophy on what makes a good team is apparently very different than others. I hadn't given it a lot of thought prior to this discussion, but top scorer thru part of the season doesn't really impress me as much as having a built a team that is peaking late.

[kjduke]

KJ, why did you delete the data in posts 2 and 3 that supported your argument from this year's Diamond League? It's hard to have an intelligent argument without those facts. Plus you were pushing Victory Points and how that would help this league, but again there's no data for people to look at.

Because that data became the focal point, not what is best for the future. My argument is not about one league.

[Greg Ambrosius]

KJ, why did you delete the data in posts 2 and 3 that supported your argument from this year's Diamond League? It's hard to have an intelligent argument without those facts. Plus you were pushing Victory Points and how that would help this league, but again there's no data for people to look at.

Because that data became the focal point, not what is best for the future. My argument is not about one league.

I must admit, the focal point has zig-zagged so much I can't follow it. I think the focal point is: Offer a 16-week regular season or I'll play somewhere else. But don't the competitor that you said you'd go to, don't they have 11-week regular seasons?? What other high-stakes fantasy football contest has full total points 16-week regular seasons?

I thought you were going with Victory Points in high-dollar leagues and I thought it would be worth a discussion. But again, VP proved to be just as close as H2H in your example, except you beat Paul by 1 point instead of losing by 1 game. Both setups would have taken the outcome to the final game of the season, which we currently have. And all of your examples showed how your team would have made the playoffs despite finishing 6th out of 12 teams in points.

If the focal point is 6 of 12 teams make the playoffs and it's total points over 16 weeks, I think it's a tough sell in the NFFC. Again, isn't our 13-week regular season A SELLING POINT over the competition? And don't we want 6th highest scoring teams to be on the sidelines while the top 2, 3 or 4 teams battle for the most prize money??

You're a man who plays for it all, plans for the top prize. 6 of 12 and spreading the wealth sounds almost, how do I say?, socialistic, doesn't it?

But again, I think you need to post the facts on Page 1 so that folks know what you started fighting for on a day when we were celebrating league champions and how we can compare this year's results with future proposals. It's hard to do without facts.

[ForLoveOfTheGame]

I prefer to deal in facts rather than opinion. Fact is you have the most points, you have to draw a cutoff somewhere (sure shouldn't be after 11 weeks!), at that cutoff you are the best team with the thing you can control the most, points. Congrats! You are in as you should be!

Its obvious you think someone scoring the most points in weeks 14-16 is more impressive (your quote "top scorer thru part of the season doesn't really impress me as much as having a built a team that is peaking late" and I'd argue you saying "part" of the season is incorrect, it should be most, not part) than someone doing it over a MUCH longer time (weeks 1-13). There is no reason weeks 1-13 shouldn't matter based on if you are peaking or not. If I had Mcfadden and Murray yet finished deserving of a playoff spot even though I limped in I'd be excited to see what I can do! Plenty of teams in real football and fantasy have limped in and won it, no reason or rule says you have to be peaking. If you can't understand that then I can't help you.

[HOF]

Everyone knew the rules BEFORE they signed up and DURING the season. I managed to try and be either the top H2H and/or top point scorer after week 13 to make the playoffs.

If i didnt...shit happens and I knew that going in.

Trying to change the format to get more teams in just because a few people barely missed out isnt going to help. You will just have the same convo every year.

[BillyWaz]

I think you'd make a better argument (talking Diamond league) if you suggested they just play it out for 16 weeks. I don't really see a reason you need to reset in leagues without an overall prize pool other than to make it winnable by all teams who get in because sometimes total points is over pretty early so you could play it out and see what happens (I personally would never reset these, if someone dominates a 10k buy in league he shouldn't have to reset to anything). No one ever talks about it but someone can CRUSH weeks 1-13 in overall total points then score the 2nd most points in the playoffs and not win a grand title worth 75k-150k even though he destroyed everyone from beginning to end. That's a real issue to me, not I finished 6th in points and didn't get in. I've got plenty of teams with 9+ wins this year or 3rd or 4th in points that didn't get in and I'm THRILLED about it, they didn't deserve it, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

In one of my other high stakes leagues I led the league in points thru 13 weeks. In my opinion, it doesn't look deserving of a playoff spot at this point. Like I said, my philosophy on what makes a good team is apparently very different than others. I hadn't given it a lot of thought prior to this discussion, but top scorer thru part of the season doesn't really impress me as much as having a built a team that is peaking late.

While I agree it is nice to have a team you feel is peaking late, that is ALL speculation. Seriously, did ANYONE see Brees or Brady putting up their stinkers this week??? I certainly didn't.

While we all can say, 'he has a great matchup in week ___", WE REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WILL HAPPEN. If we did, no one in their right minds would of started Drew Brees this past week.

I'm with Jared where I feel the body of work through 13 weeks should be rewarded handsomely. I again will bring up that the playoff advantage should be AT LEAST 2x their average (ESPECIALLY in single leagues!) Then I wouldn't have as much of an issue with allowing an extra team in. I agree that NO MORE than 4 teams should get in for a 12 team league. In a 14, I could see more, but wouldn't prefer it.

Victory point leagues where it cuts to 4 (or 2) immediately would be my vote.

[BillyWaz]

Everyone knew the rules BEFORE they signed up and DURING the season. I managed to try and be either the top H2H and/or top point scorer after week 13 to make the playoffs.

If i didnt...shit happens and I knew that going in.

Trying to change the format to get more teams in just because a few people barely missed out isnt going to help. You will just have the same convo every year.

True.

I won a Super a couple years ago. I believe I was either 2nd or 3rd in points going in. I was one who advocated for only 4 teams rather than 6. Now that I have missed 2 Supers as the 5th or 6th best in points, I of course would love to see that format back again. But seriously, it is all about "the now".

You got screwed last year KJ, and by the sounds of it, you could again. Murphy's Law says if you get a rule change for more teams, you will be 2nd in points and will be beat out by the 5th and 6th place in point teams......always works that way.