NFFC Rules Survey Going Out This Week

[Jack_Bauer]

IMO, what it comes down to is this: Is it really fair that anyone who owns the DST of a team whose returner runs a TD back is essentially losing ground if the individual player were also rewarded (especially evident if that individual player is playing against another NFFC team who has that DST)?

I am confused. How is the team who owns the defense losing ground? If I have Antonio Brown and my opponent in fantasy has the Steeler defense and Brown returns a punt for a TD we both get 6 points. Not unlike if I have Eli Manning and my opponent has Victor Cruz and Eli throws a TD to Cruz we both get the 6 points for the same TD.

There is one regular circumstance where we all root AGAINST our own fantasy players. That is when a viable starting offensive player (Welker, Brown, Harvin, and others) is returning a kick. If your player performs the most successful play possible in real football (ie, scores a TD) it HURTS the owner who has that player. Plus, this player is at risk for injury on every return with zero chance for reward.

I cannot see why this can't be changed. How often it (a return TD) occurs isn't really the point. It does occur and more importantly. How often viable starting fantasy players return punts pretty regularly is the point. The point is if this rule were changed, fantasy owners would not have to cringe as much watching punt returns and would actually have something to root for.

[Greg Ambrosius]

IMO, what it comes down to is this: Is it really fair that anyone who owns the DST of a team whose returner runs a TD back is essentially losing ground if the individual player were also rewarded (especially evident if that individual player is playing against another NFFC team who has that DST)?

But this comes up every year, as if a whole slew of NFFC starting lineup players might benefit from it and are instead being screwed, when in reality, there were 7 total TDs of this type that might have actually mattered. And 3 of those 7 were by Jacoby Jones; seriously, how many starting lineups was he in this year with his 5 PPG average (and considering he only scored 1 return TD last year)?

So we're really talking about 4 TDs of this type that would've also been rewarded to a player - hardly predictable or of any real consequence on draft day. I mean, would anyone have drafted Harvin, Cobb, Edelman or Hilton even a round earlier knowing that they MIGHT score a single TD on special teams this year? Doubtful.

Given that, why should those who draft and start DSTs largely based on their defensive prowess (seeing ST is so unpredictable) have to ever risk losing points because a position player who might have been in someone's lineup can negate it?

As I said last year too, remove the ST from DST and then I have no issue with giving the return TDs to the individual players. Look how random the return TDs were and for what DSTs (ADP): IND (N/A), NE (12), GB (5), BAL (4), MIN (23). Did anyone drafting those DSTs really do so because they predicted any return TDs?

2012 Punt Return TDs:
Rank Player Team Pos Value
1 Leodis McKelvin Buffalo Bills CB 2
2 T.Y. Hilton Indianapolis Colts WR 1
2 Dwayne Harris Dallas Cowboys WR 1
2 Julian Edelman New England Patriots WR 1
2 Damaris Johnson Philadelphia Eagles WR 1
2 Tommie Campbell Tennessee Titans DB 1
2 Randall Cobb Green Bay Packers WR 1
2 Marcus Sherels Minnesota Vikings CB 1
2 Jacoby Jones Baltimore Ravens WR 1
2 Jeremy Kerley New York Jets WR 1
2 Adam Jones Cincinnati Bengals CB 1
2 Trindon Holliday Denver Broncos WR 1
2 Marcus Thigpen Miami Dolphins RB 1

2012 Kickoff Return TDs:
Rank Player Team Pos Value
1 Jacoby Jones Baltimore Ravens WR 2
2 Marcus Thigpen Miami Dolphins RB 1
2 Leon Washington Seattle Seahawks RB 1
2 Darius Reynaud Tennessee Titans WR 1
2 Devin McCourty New England Patriots CB 1
2 Joe McKnight New York Jets RB 1
2 Trindon Holliday Denver Broncos WR 1
2 Percy Harvin Minnesota Vikings WR 1
2 Brad Smith Buffalo Bills WR 1

Source: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player- ... touchdowns

This is great information Mike and very helpful. I will use this along with the survey data to form a decision for 2013. I agree with you, the number of skill players who actually return a kickoff or punt for a TD is minimal and won't have a big effect either way.

That being said, rewarding the Special Team that returns one of these kicks for a TD is still worthwhile. Yes, there's a lot of luck involved in that, but we do draft D/ST with a possible "lucky 6" in mind. Chicago's D/ST always has to be among the top picks at that position because it has Devin Hester. So we will definitely keep D/ST going forward.

I have thoughts on also rewarding the individual player, but let's see what the survey says. Last year's survey showed that more people wanted the player and the D/ST to be rewarded on a kick return for a TD, but the margin wasn't big enough to warrant a change. Now that we've asked this question two years in a row, let's see if opinions have changed at all. Either way, it's not going to be a big change in the final scoring, but I do want to look at this rule more closely.

The current voting for INTs is also very interesting. This is also the second straight year we've included that question on the survey, so let's look at two years of data and make a decision.

If you haven't voted yet on these three survey questions, please do so. We'll announce the survey results later next week. Thanks all.

I'll never apologize for getting feedback from our customers on any potential rules change. Your feedback is VITALLY IMPORTANT. At the end of the day, Tom and I have to make the final decisions, but taking the temperature of our paying customers on any area of our contest is very important. Trust me, Tom and I don't know everything!!! Hell, we NEED your input to keep this contest fine-tuned and current to today's standards.

[Jack_Bauer]

Greg,

I am not sure it is about how many viable fantasy players actually return a kick for a TD. It is about how many NFFC players are miserable watching their WR back to field a punt where absolutely nothing good can happen, and tons of bad can happen. I believe the fact that so few TDs actually happen supports the reason why the individual player should be credited with the TD.

[JETS SB]

Interesting discussion on kick return TDs. I don't think awarding points to these players will have much of an effect at all on anything. As great of a kick returner Devin Hester is, he hasn't had one in a long time. Would I be more willing to put him in my lineup over another decent wide receiver, if I knew he could get 6 points for a kick return TD? No. I would have to be pretty desperate and probably not on a very good team, to have to do so. And hoping for a kick return TD is like winning the lottery, and the prize is not that rewarding. Even the best ones only have 2 or 3 in a season and those guys are not going to be in my lineup just for the chance of a kick return TD. Now, A. Brown, Cobb, Harvin or Sproles is a different story, but there are only a handful of difference maker kick returners that will be in anyone's lineup. I agree that, if anything, it is for peace of mind for the Brown and Sproles type owners who might get a bonus once or twice a year. Really not a big deal.

[Jack_Bauer]

Jets,

You hit the nail on the head. It will not impact much very often. It gives owners some peace of mind when their valued WR is on the field. It isn't just the chance of injury. It is that (under current rules) a returned TD costs that very player a possession to generate fantasy points on offense. You should not have to root against your own player.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Greg,

I am not sure it is about how many viable fantasy players actually return a kick for a TD. It is about how many NFFC players are miserable watching their WR back to field a punt where absolutely nothing good can happen, and tons of bad can happen. I believe the fact that so few TDs actually happen supports the reason why the individual player should be credited with the TD.

It's certainly a good argument along with Mike's numbers about how few of those players do actually return kicks for TDs.

[ChiTwn]

Greg,

I was hoping to see a question regarding:

Should team defenses/special teams be penalized for points given up when they are not even on the field?

i.e. Pick 6 or fumble by offense leading to a defensive td.

I have been doing fantasy football for over 15+ years, and have never seen this in any league. Is there a good reason why this is the way it is?

Am I the only one here that feels that team defenses shouldn't be penalized for a boneheaded mistake by their qb. I only drafted the team's defense/special teams, not the team's offense.

Could you include this question in the second survey?

[Jack_Bauer]

Greg,

I am not sure it is about how many viable fantasy players actually return a kick for a TD. It is about how many NFFC players are miserable watching their WR back to field a punt where absolutely nothing good can happen, and tons of bad can happen. I believe the fact that so few TDs actually happen supports the reason why the individual player should be credited with the TD.

It's certainly a good argument along with Mike's numbers about how few of those players do actually return kicks for TDs.

Greg,

I agree. But I think Mike's numbers support the argument that we should credit the individual player with the return TD. It doesn't happen that often, but it will finally remove the agony of watching a viable fantasy player on a play where nothing positive can happen and tons of negative can.

[BillyWaz]

Greg,

I am not sure it is about how many viable fantasy players actually return a kick for a TD. It is about how many NFFC players are miserable watching their WR back to field a punt where absolutely nothing good can happen, and tons of bad can happen. I believe the fact that so few TDs actually happen supports the reason why the individual player should be credited with the TD.

It's certainly a good argument along with Mike's numbers about how few of those players do actually return kicks for TDs.

Greg,

I agree. But I think Mike's numbers support the argument that we should credit the individual player with the return TD. It doesn't happen that often, but it will finally remove the agony of watching a viable fantasy player on a play where nothing positive can happen and tons of negative can.

Exactly! And you also brought up another good point about when someone returns a kick, it doesn't give the offense a chance to generate more points.

I can't see ANY negative in changing this rule, and feel the only way someone would vote against it is they simply don't want change.

[Sandman62]

I still just don't see this as the same as a QB throwing a TD to a receiver; those are two separate football acts by two individual players. And on special teams plays, "blocking" doesn't count as a separate act from whomever actually scored because in leagues that don't do Individual Defensive Players (IDP), the defense and special teams is considered ONE "player". Therefore, there is only ONE "player" on the field during special teams plays - and all blocks, laterals, fumbles, and TDs are performed just by that one "player".

But I can see how the middle ground on this for Greg might be to just award both, given the infrequency. Don't be surprised though if there will then be complaints when owners of a DST have their ST points negated by an offensive player even when the offense wasn't on the field (similar to the valid complaint of DSTs losing points when they're not on the field).

If this ends up changed, here's something else to keep in mind though:
1) If an offensive player like Edelman lines up as a cornerback and returns a pick 6, does HE get the points AND the DST? What if he fumbles? He AND the DST lose 1 point, right?
2) What about a hail mary where the offense's tallest WRs are playing defense and intercept the ball? Two points each for the DST AND the WR?
For consistency, I think the answer to these would have to be "yes", unless the new rule is restricted to just special teams. Food for thought.