Should There Be A Third Place League Playoff In 2009?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:47 am

Turbough has asked on the boards that the NFFC incorporate a third place playoff in Weeks 14-16 like we do with the top two teams in order to pay out the last $1,250 for third place. I have not done that to date because there's already been a lot of debate against head-to-head records and their importance, but it's still worth looking into. I've gone through every league in the NFFC Classic and Primetime main events and listed through Week 10 what this third place playoff would look like. As you can see, in some leagues the third and fourth place teams are very close, yet in others the second-best h2h record is 6th, 7th or even 8th in total points.

NFFC Classic Main Event
Through Week 10 (top team is 3rd, bottom team is h2h)
1251.6 - Orl. 1
1217.7

1274.45 - Orl. 2
1245.0

1305.65 - Chi. 1
1158.55

1261.15 - Chi. 2
1231.05

1325.3 - Chi. 3
1240.1

1285.6 - Chi. 4
1120.6

1235.9 - Chi. 5
1216.3

1311.35 - LV 1
1264.8

1287.35 - LV 2
12221.25

1324.65 - LV 3
1161.5 (8th in league total points)

1308.8 - LV 4
1204.85 (8th in league total points)

1276.15 - LV 5
1264.5

1308.5 - LV 6
1206.35 (6th in league total points)

1299.30 - LV 7
1150.70 (9th in league total points)

1341.65 - LV 8
1308.7

1288.8 - NY 1
1238.15

1306.15 - NY 2
1234.35 (5th in league total points)

1303.95 - NY 3
1230.02

1267.05 - NY 4
1256.45

1296.2 - NY 5
1162.5

1388.8 - NY 6
1254.1

1296.8 - NY 7
1207.25

Here is the data for the NFFC Primetime main event and I'll add this to the thread above:

NFFC Primetime Main Event
Through Week 10 (top team is 3rd, bottom team is h2h)
1378.45 - Orl. 1
1229.5

1304.95 - Orl. 2
1301.7

1326.5 - Phone 1
1306.25

1382.3 - Phone 2
1262.7

1309.8 - Chi 1
1304.3

1338.65 - Chi 2
1225.65

1299.85 - Chi 3
1272.00

1311.80 - Chi 4
1220.9 (6th in league points)

1323.65 - LV 1
1221.55 (6th in league points)

1294.00 - LV 2
1283.25

1329.4 - LV 3
1274.45 (5th in league points)

1317.9 - LV 4
1306.7

1363.55 - LV 5
1253.25

1287.25 - LV 6
1277.55

1293. 25 - LV 7
1277.25

1284.8 - NY 1
1239.4 (6th in total points)

1311.65 - NY 2
1309.65

1380.9 - NY 3
1235.45

1362.05 - NY 4
1248.65

1355.25 - NY 5
1263.25

1388.7 - NY 6
1321.8

[ November 12, 2008, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

TURBOUGH · Post by **TURBOUGH** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:53 am

I'd hate to ask you to go back but I'd like to see their records as well.

mikeybok · Post by **mikeybok** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:53 am

Personally ... I am OK with where things are at (assuming you keep H2H). I do not like putting a third team (or fourth or sixth teams like the auction) into the mix. It just waters down coming in first or second. Why punish those teams? Just my opinion.

UYT

Hammerheads · Post by **Hammerheads** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:09 am

I don't think what is being proposed effects 1st and 2nd. It's a playoff for 3rd place money but I am still not in favor off it. I believe there would be to many times when a team won on luck alone.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:27 am

Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
I'd hate to ask you to go back but I'd like to see their records as well. Second-best records are mainly 8-2, 7-3, 6-4. That's not the concern. It's the fact that many of these second-best records aren't fourth-best in total points through 13 weeks, they are sixth, seventh, eighth and even ninth in total points.

So the question is: Should a team that is 100+ points behind in total points be given a three-week playoff starting from scratch to win that $1,250 third place prize because it had a better h2h record?? As you can see above, there are some cases where it might be justified and in other cases it would be darn unfair to that total points team (which sometimes was second in total points but the h2h champ had a better record) that finished well ahead for 13 weeks.

That's the discussion. I'm interested either way.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:30 am

One more point: The argument that adding a third place league playoff will keep more teams involved longer really isn't true from the facts through Week 10. Many of those teams that are second-best in h2h are currently still very much in the hunt for the $5,000 league prize along with those with third-best h2h records. In both events, eight leagues have ties for first with best h2h records and most leagues have just one-game leads as of now anyway.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:49 am

Here is the data for the NFFC Primetime main event and I'll add this to the thread above:

NFFC Primetime Main Event
Through Week 10 (top team is 3rd, bottom team is h2h)
1378.45 - Orl. 1
1229.5

1304.95 - Orl. 2
1301.7

1326.5 - Phone 1
1306.25

1382.3 - Phone 2
1262.7

1309.8 - Chi 1
1304.3

1338.65 - Chi 2
1225.65

1299.85 - Chi 3
1272.00

1311.80 - Chi 4
1220.9 (6th in league points)

1323.65 - LV 1
1221.55 (6th in league points)

1294.00 - LV 2
1283.25

1329.4 - LV 3
1274.45 (5th in league points)

1317.9 - LV 4
1306.7

1363.55 - LV 5
1253.25

1287.25 - LV 6
1277.55

1293. 25 - LV 7
1277.25

1284.8 - NY 1
1239.4 (6th in total points)

1311.65 - NY 2
1309.65

1380.9 - NY 3
1235.45

1362.05 - NY 4
1248.65

1355.25 - NY 5
1263.25

1388.7 - NY 6
1321.8

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:52 am

In the data above for the NFFC Primetime main event, 9 of 21 third place teams are 90+ points ahead of the second-best h2h team through 10 weeks.

In the NFFC Classic main event, 10 of 22 third place teams are 90+ points ahead of the second-best h2h team through 10 weeks.

ultimatefs · Post by **ultimatefs** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:56 am

8 are less than 50
14 are more than 50
7 are more than 100 (that's 10 pts per week!)

I'm not for this at all.

Forget about 4th place teams.

3rd place teams that are 2nd in total points (h2h winner is 3rd or worst in total pts)should get a crack in 3-team playoff for league Championship.

That's the only change to current structure that should be added IMO.

Here are the three teams from Greg's other thread today. (19 of 22 leagues have H2H leader 1st or 2nd)

NFFC:

LV 1: 1 team at 10-0, 4th in points (1263.45)
2nd in points (1311.35)

LV 3: 1 team at 8-2, 5th in points (1270.9)
2nd in points (1324.65)

LV 7: 1 team at 8-2, 8th in points (1176.15)
2nd in points (1323.8)

NBC:

Orl. 1: 2 teams tied at 7-3, top team is 3rd in points (1310.3)
2nd in points (1378.45 only 2 pts from #1)

LV 5: 1 team at 8-2, 3rd in points(1301.8)
2nd in points (1363.55)

LV 6: 2 teams at 8-2, 3rd in points (1440.75, this one is incorrect as posted as far as I can see. There are only 5 teams)

NY 2: 1 team at 8-2, 3rd in points (1326.65)
2nd in points (1343.95)

NY 3: 1 team at 8-2, 3rd in points (1305.4)
2nd in points (1380.9)

NY 5: 2 teams at 8-2, 3rd in points (1349.2)
2nd in points (1355.2)

NY 6: 1 team at 8-2, 3rd in points (1326.35)
2nd in points (1388.7)

8 teams in NFFC/NBC... 3 of these teams are less than FIVE points away from #1 top score. The other five aren't that far off #1.

BTW, I'm in LV1 NFFC, and am the points leader by 50.

[ November 12, 2008, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: JohnZ ]

weber7777 · Post by **weber7777** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:01 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
I'd hate to ask you to go back but I'd like to see their records as well. Second-best records are mainly 8-2, 7-3, 6-4. That's not the concern. It's the fact that many of these second-best records aren't fourth-best in total points through 13 weeks, they are sixth, seventh, eighth and even ninth in total points.

So the question is: Should a team that is 100+ points behind in total points be given a three-week playoff starting from scratch to win that $1,250 third place prize because it had a better h2h record?? As you can see above, there are some cases where it might be justified and in other cases it would be darn unfair to that total points team (which sometimes was second in total points but the h2h champ had a better record) that finished well ahead for 13 weeks.

That's the discussion. I'm interested either way. [/QUOTE]This is what i don't get guys. If your giving the "BEST" record a shot at league prize money in 1st place, why is it so bad to give the 2nd best a shot at 3rd place money just because he is 6th in points..

you could have undefeated team in league at 13-0 with 5th best point total. Why should he be in money and not the guy with 2nd best record get a shot either..

essentially you either eliminate the head to head all together or do it like auction leagues and give 4 teams a shot at all the money.

Best record gets money automatically for getting best record.

Most points (if not best record gets money for that as well automatically).

Next best record and next most points are in a 4 team playoff with the other two teams above.

Top 3 after 3 weeks get prize money.

As for main event, take top teams point wise for tournament itself.. what you do in league playoffs or in the league itself with the exception of points doesn't account for anything except for individual leage prize money.

Not that complicated, it's fair. If people don't think wins should get them 3rd place money then you have to remove 1st place win money for wins team by the same logic.. lets be real, if you win a game head to head, it's luck not skill. Points does determine the best team..

I love head to head though and don't want it gone.

Mike.