Originally posted by fflmaster:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.
This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.
ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.
They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.
This show is just going to be bad news. [/QUOTE]This is a pretty funny post considering it comes from the same person who posted on this board and I quote. "I think a lawsuit against ESPN and Suzy Kolber personally would get the attention necessary."
Which way is the wind blowing today, Al?
WCOFF bankruptcy
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thegambler
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WCOFF bankruptcy
See you in Vegas john....
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
It's definitely about the players Chad. Players who are hard-working Americans that paid honest money to play a legal game of skill and expected their winnings in due time. Nobody is pointing a finger at the players. As you said, each time anyone asked for answers there was a person picking up the phone and saying what folks wanted to hear. This wasn't a scam, this was just bad business that led to losses that couldn't be overcome and lies that sounded good. Players got the run-around for months and months and months. Heck, the event wasn't cancelled until two days before Draft Day, when some folks were already in Las Vegas wondering where the WCOFF draft room was. I got calls on Thursday from players in Las Vegas who were shocked to hear that the WCOFF had been cancelled. They had no idea this was coming to an end.
Honesty could have saved a lot of people a lot of money and a lot of grief. Again, in my eyes this is not a story about an industry gone wild, contests being set up as scams or Ponzi schemes, or an industry that needs immediate government regulation. This is a story about a bad investment based on unrealistic expectations of the market. The WCOFF should have been one of the industry's shining stars, but bad business decisions and practices has led to hundreds of people being hurt financially in what is easily the biggest default our industry has ever seen. It's a crying shame and nobody knows that more than you and Kevin Kirves. Unfortunately you may not have meant it with the intent that was perceived but you did lay some blame on the players.
You wrote this:
Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?
I think that is what upset Chad and Glenn the most. I would agree that when all is said and done the last thing I would want to hear if I was in their shoes is a bunch of I told you so's or shame on you's. Unfortunately it happened and I prey that the good people involved that are owed money get what they deserve as I also hope the crooks involved here get what they deserve. It doesn't look good but I will be doing my Tebow tonight and will wish for the best for all of you involved.
It's definitely about the players Chad. Players who are hard-working Americans that paid honest money to play a legal game of skill and expected their winnings in due time. Nobody is pointing a finger at the players. As you said, each time anyone asked for answers there was a person picking up the phone and saying what folks wanted to hear. This wasn't a scam, this was just bad business that led to losses that couldn't be overcome and lies that sounded good. Players got the run-around for months and months and months. Heck, the event wasn't cancelled until two days before Draft Day, when some folks were already in Las Vegas wondering where the WCOFF draft room was. I got calls on Thursday from players in Las Vegas who were shocked to hear that the WCOFF had been cancelled. They had no idea this was coming to an end.
Honesty could have saved a lot of people a lot of money and a lot of grief. Again, in my eyes this is not a story about an industry gone wild, contests being set up as scams or Ponzi schemes, or an industry that needs immediate government regulation. This is a story about a bad investment based on unrealistic expectations of the market. The WCOFF should have been one of the industry's shining stars, but bad business decisions and practices has led to hundreds of people being hurt financially in what is easily the biggest default our industry has ever seen. It's a crying shame and nobody knows that more than you and Kevin Kirves. Unfortunately you may not have meant it with the intent that was perceived but you did lay some blame on the players.
You wrote this:
Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?
I think that is what upset Chad and Glenn the most. I would agree that when all is said and done the last thing I would want to hear if I was in their shoes is a bunch of I told you so's or shame on you's. Unfortunately it happened and I prey that the good people involved that are owed money get what they deserve as I also hope the crooks involved here get what they deserve. It doesn't look good but I will be doing my Tebow tonight and will wish for the best for all of you involved.
The Artist Formerly Known as Hard Heads
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Team Legacy
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WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
We started the Fantasy Sports Players Association in 1999 to protect fantasy players from just this. Game companies weren't paying prizes and we felt players needed to be protected. We regulated ourselves, but it's obvious nobody is watching over anyone these days.Greg, why did you ever quit? And seriously, what is your problem with what the FPA is doing? Did we not report continually for the players behalf all summer long? Did we not interview and produce an official WCOFF Investigative Report on issues of sponsorship and foul play? Did we not field and answer about a thousand emails and countless phone calls over the summer to inform players what was going on and where to find information on the issue? Maybe you did too, with motive as a contest operator but we did it for free. I can tell you, from their emails and phone calls, they were all very appreciative for our voluntary efforts over the summer, but here you sit, an industry guy, now making comments and I quote "but its obvious nobody is watching over anyone" with no appreciation it seems for what we've done and continue to do in service for the players.
Why do you think ESPN contacted us? Did we not collect over 125 winning players information, find and make representation options available to them? I don't know what you did back in 1999 with the FSPA but those efforts were obviously abandoned because the FSTA is not a player interest group in the least. They have since communicated to us the idea of sitting on a player panel of some sort so maybe that's a step in the right direction but I'm just baffled by your continual tone in private emails and public posts. It's weird, You do realize that Matt, Jack, Mike, myself and others who sit on the board all play in your contests and to be honest, as someone who has played in your contests for years, your public jabs at our board members efforts tick me off. Heck Matt even did a story on your discount for players burned by WCOFF. I just don't get it.
[ December 10, 2011, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Scott Atkins ]
We started the Fantasy Sports Players Association in 1999 to protect fantasy players from just this. Game companies weren't paying prizes and we felt players needed to be protected. We regulated ourselves, but it's obvious nobody is watching over anyone these days.Greg, why did you ever quit? And seriously, what is your problem with what the FPA is doing? Did we not report continually for the players behalf all summer long? Did we not interview and produce an official WCOFF Investigative Report on issues of sponsorship and foul play? Did we not field and answer about a thousand emails and countless phone calls over the summer to inform players what was going on and where to find information on the issue? Maybe you did too, with motive as a contest operator but we did it for free. I can tell you, from their emails and phone calls, they were all very appreciative for our voluntary efforts over the summer, but here you sit, an industry guy, now making comments and I quote "but its obvious nobody is watching over anyone" with no appreciation it seems for what we've done and continue to do in service for the players.
Why do you think ESPN contacted us? Did we not collect over 125 winning players information, find and make representation options available to them? I don't know what you did back in 1999 with the FSPA but those efforts were obviously abandoned because the FSTA is not a player interest group in the least. They have since communicated to us the idea of sitting on a player panel of some sort so maybe that's a step in the right direction but I'm just baffled by your continual tone in private emails and public posts. It's weird, You do realize that Matt, Jack, Mike, myself and others who sit on the board all play in your contests and to be honest, as someone who has played in your contests for years, your public jabs at our board members efforts tick me off. Heck Matt even did a story on your discount for players burned by WCOFF. I just don't get it.
[ December 10, 2011, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Scott Atkins ]
Twitter: @ScottFantasy
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Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Scott Atkins:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
We started the Fantasy Sports Players Association in 1999 to protect fantasy players from just this. Game companies weren't paying prizes and we felt players needed to be protected. We regulated ourselves, but it's obvious nobody is watching over anyone these days.Greg, why did you ever quit? And seriously, what is your problem with what the FPA is doing? Did we not report continually for the players behalf all summer long? Did we not interview and produce an official WCOFF Investigative Report on issues of sponsorship and foul play? Did we not field and answer about a thousand emails and countless phone calls over the summer to inform players what was going on and where to find information on the issue? Maybe you did too, with motive as a contest operator but we did it for free. I can tell you, from their emails and phone calls, they were all very appreciative for our voluntary efforts over the summer, but here you sit, an industry guy, now making comments and I quote "but its obvious nobody is watching over anyone" with no appreciation it seems for what we've done and continue to do in service for the players.
Why do you think ESPN contacted us? Did we not collect over 125 winning players information, find and make representation options available to them? I don't know what you did back in 1999 with the FSPA but those efforts were obviously abandoned because the FSTA is not a player interest group in the least. They have since communicated to us the idea of sitting on a player panel of some sort so maybe that's a step in the right direction but I'm just baffled by your continual tone in private emails and public posts. It's weird, You do realize that Matt, Jack, Mike, myself and others who sit on the board all play in your contests and to be honest, as someone who has played in your contests for years, your public jabs at our board members efforts tick me off. Heck Matt even did a story on your discount for players burned by WCOFF. I just don't get it. [/QUOTE]Scott, no need to get defensive. This was not a jab at the FPA; if anything it's a point towards the FSTA for not doing anything this summer when many facts were known. It's great that the FPA did all it could to uncover the facts AFTER the damage was done, but a true Trade Association (like the FSTA) would intervene when it knew what was happening with one of its members BEFORE any more damage could be done. The WCOFF was a long-time member of the FSTA, an award winning member and I felt in June at the FSTA Conference the board could have done more to pressure Dustin for more facts about why football winners hadn't been paid yet. The fact that he was still going to take entry fees for 2011 when 2010 winners hadn't been paid was something I felt the FSTA should have questioned and something the public should have been informed about. But it wasn't done and that's where I wish things could be different.
Again, I don't think it's the FPA's role to do that, but I felt that's what we originally set up the FSTA to do. When you have Trade Association members and one is causing problems, you stop it. The FSTA didn't feel they had the power to do much more and that's what is frustrating to me. But honestly, maybe nobody could do anything at that point but hope Dustin found a way to solve it. Maybe my hope for a trade association with teeth to regulate its members is a pipe dream.
I don't have anything against the FPA. As you told me this week, your organization isn't designed to do what I'm talking about. I support any association that is a watchdog over the contests and informs the players about contests. My point is that I wish we had an association that also could prevent contests from taking in more signup revenue if it hasn't paid off the previous year's winners first. I think we both agree on that point.
The industry is better off if we have watchdogs. The FSTA and FPA have their roles for industry businesses and players. I'm glad that's the case. I just hope that the government doesn't become our third watchdog because I really believe we can police ourselves without having preventitive rules and regulations for every single type of entry point or contest.
Good job uncovering as many facts as you could and keep up the good work. I hope whatever positive spin you could put on our industry is put on this show. I strongly believe our industry is better than ever, but in every business environment there are bad apples. This is one that affected hundreds and hundreds of players to the tune of over $1 million. What a shame.
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
We started the Fantasy Sports Players Association in 1999 to protect fantasy players from just this. Game companies weren't paying prizes and we felt players needed to be protected. We regulated ourselves, but it's obvious nobody is watching over anyone these days.Greg, why did you ever quit? And seriously, what is your problem with what the FPA is doing? Did we not report continually for the players behalf all summer long? Did we not interview and produce an official WCOFF Investigative Report on issues of sponsorship and foul play? Did we not field and answer about a thousand emails and countless phone calls over the summer to inform players what was going on and where to find information on the issue? Maybe you did too, with motive as a contest operator but we did it for free. I can tell you, from their emails and phone calls, they were all very appreciative for our voluntary efforts over the summer, but here you sit, an industry guy, now making comments and I quote "but its obvious nobody is watching over anyone" with no appreciation it seems for what we've done and continue to do in service for the players.
Why do you think ESPN contacted us? Did we not collect over 125 winning players information, find and make representation options available to them? I don't know what you did back in 1999 with the FSPA but those efforts were obviously abandoned because the FSTA is not a player interest group in the least. They have since communicated to us the idea of sitting on a player panel of some sort so maybe that's a step in the right direction but I'm just baffled by your continual tone in private emails and public posts. It's weird, You do realize that Matt, Jack, Mike, myself and others who sit on the board all play in your contests and to be honest, as someone who has played in your contests for years, your public jabs at our board members efforts tick me off. Heck Matt even did a story on your discount for players burned by WCOFF. I just don't get it. [/QUOTE]Scott, no need to get defensive. This was not a jab at the FPA; if anything it's a point towards the FSTA for not doing anything this summer when many facts were known. It's great that the FPA did all it could to uncover the facts AFTER the damage was done, but a true Trade Association (like the FSTA) would intervene when it knew what was happening with one of its members BEFORE any more damage could be done. The WCOFF was a long-time member of the FSTA, an award winning member and I felt in June at the FSTA Conference the board could have done more to pressure Dustin for more facts about why football winners hadn't been paid yet. The fact that he was still going to take entry fees for 2011 when 2010 winners hadn't been paid was something I felt the FSTA should have questioned and something the public should have been informed about. But it wasn't done and that's where I wish things could be different.
Again, I don't think it's the FPA's role to do that, but I felt that's what we originally set up the FSTA to do. When you have Trade Association members and one is causing problems, you stop it. The FSTA didn't feel they had the power to do much more and that's what is frustrating to me. But honestly, maybe nobody could do anything at that point but hope Dustin found a way to solve it. Maybe my hope for a trade association with teeth to regulate its members is a pipe dream.
I don't have anything against the FPA. As you told me this week, your organization isn't designed to do what I'm talking about. I support any association that is a watchdog over the contests and informs the players about contests. My point is that I wish we had an association that also could prevent contests from taking in more signup revenue if it hasn't paid off the previous year's winners first. I think we both agree on that point.
The industry is better off if we have watchdogs. The FSTA and FPA have their roles for industry businesses and players. I'm glad that's the case. I just hope that the government doesn't become our third watchdog because I really believe we can police ourselves without having preventitive rules and regulations for every single type of entry point or contest.
Good job uncovering as many facts as you could and keep up the good work. I hope whatever positive spin you could put on our industry is put on this show. I strongly believe our industry is better than ever, but in every business environment there are bad apples. This is one that affected hundreds and hundreds of players to the tune of over $1 million. What a shame.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy
One thing I'll add is that during my time on the FSPA's board we never were presented with a situation where a contest provider defaulted on prizes. I'm not boasting that we regulated the industry any better than the folks trying to do that now. Heck, during the end of my time as president Neil Wickham was an FSTA member, I did have him on a panel once about fantasy games and a few years later his AFFL company defaulted on prizes. We never saw that coming and yet it happened.
I don't think Fantasy Jungle ever joined the FSTA, but I'm not sure a Trade Association could have done anything to prevent that, either.
So I'm not trying to say things were done better or differently in the early years of the FSPA. I'm just saying that originally contests defaulting on prizes was a big concern of the industry and the FSPA was designed to protect the players if anything happened again. Thankfully nothing did until AFFL defaulted and again I'm not sure there was anything anyone could have done before the fact.
In WCOFF's case, a lot of people knew how deep the damage was by late spring and to think that the industry was going to allow them to take 2011 football entry fees before paying off 2010 prizes was one case where I felt was wrong. At that point, more information needed to be presented to customers and the industry in general before more people got hurt. The damage was already bad enough and the last thing we needed as an industry was more money coming in for a contest that was eventually cancelled. The FPA was the only association that dug deeper and presented facts publicly. I was surprised that the FSTA didn't do the same thing or more since WCOFF was a member of that association.
I don't think Fantasy Jungle ever joined the FSTA, but I'm not sure a Trade Association could have done anything to prevent that, either.
So I'm not trying to say things were done better or differently in the early years of the FSPA. I'm just saying that originally contests defaulting on prizes was a big concern of the industry and the FSPA was designed to protect the players if anything happened again. Thankfully nothing did until AFFL defaulted and again I'm not sure there was anything anyone could have done before the fact.
In WCOFF's case, a lot of people knew how deep the damage was by late spring and to think that the industry was going to allow them to take 2011 football entry fees before paying off 2010 prizes was one case where I felt was wrong. At that point, more information needed to be presented to customers and the industry in general before more people got hurt. The damage was already bad enough and the last thing we needed as an industry was more money coming in for a contest that was eventually cancelled. The FPA was the only association that dug deeper and presented facts publicly. I was surprised that the FSTA didn't do the same thing or more since WCOFF was a member of that association.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by CraigW:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
It's definitely about the players Chad. Players who are hard-working Americans that paid honest money to play a legal game of skill and expected their winnings in due time. Nobody is pointing a finger at the players. As you said, each time anyone asked for answers there was a person picking up the phone and saying what folks wanted to hear. This wasn't a scam, this was just bad business that led to losses that couldn't be overcome and lies that sounded good. Players got the run-around for months and months and months. Heck, the event wasn't cancelled until two days before Draft Day, when some folks were already in Las Vegas wondering where the WCOFF draft room was. I got calls on Thursday from players in Las Vegas who were shocked to hear that the WCOFF had been cancelled. They had no idea this was coming to an end.
Honesty could have saved a lot of people a lot of money and a lot of grief. Again, in my eyes this is not a story about an industry gone wild, contests being set up as scams or Ponzi schemes, or an industry that needs immediate government regulation. This is a story about a bad investment based on unrealistic expectations of the market. The WCOFF should have been one of the industry's shining stars, but bad business decisions and practices has led to hundreds of people being hurt financially in what is easily the biggest default our industry has ever seen. It's a crying shame and nobody knows that more than you and Kevin Kirves. Unfortunately you may not have meant it with the intent that was perceived but you did lay some blame on the players.
You wrote this:
Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?
I think that is what upset Chad and Glenn the most. I would agree that when all is said and done the last thing I would want to hear if I was in their shoes is a bunch of I told you so's or shame on you's. Unfortunately it happened and I prey that the good people involved that are owed money get what they deserve as I also hope the crooks involved here get what they deserve. It doesn't look good but I will be doing my Tebow tonight and will wish for the best for all of you involved. [/QUOTE]Craig, you are right, as I read that now I understand why anyone involved in this crap feels like I poked them in the eye after they received a black eye. That was not my intent. My point is that looking back I guess we all could have been more diligent in this, but there's no way the players could have known this was all going to play out the way it did. They were not at fault. They trusted the WCOFF with their money and their trust was badly broken.
There were certainly red flags from the previous year's late payments, the discounted entry fees on contests with thinner margins than the discounts could provide, and the incredible losses that baseball took the first year. The biggest red flag was a second year of baseball at the same ridiculous payouts. It's one thing to try to grab market share from a competitor (us) and another to present a bad business model for a second straight year. But once again, players trusted the owners.
I apologize if I offended anyone. Heck, I was putting myself in that whole category of people who could have done more. I question whether I could have pushed for more action by the industry, if I should have presented more facts to customers, if I could have prevented some folks from rolling over their prize money. I include myself, Tom and everyone else here for not doing more to prevent this from happening. As high-stakes game operators, maybe we need to be more communicative amongst ourselves and work together rather than be devisive and separate. If we truly want the HSFF space to grow and prosper, maybe we need to work together more rather than act as powerful rivals. Maybe that's something we take out of this, both as game operators and players: It's time to work together and be as open as possible on all of this.
Sorry if I opened any old wounds. That was not my intent. My intent is to prevent this from ever happening to players again and if the FPA, FSTA, FFPC, NFFC or any other combination of letters can help in that cause then COUNT ME IN!!
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
It's definitely about the players Chad. Players who are hard-working Americans that paid honest money to play a legal game of skill and expected their winnings in due time. Nobody is pointing a finger at the players. As you said, each time anyone asked for answers there was a person picking up the phone and saying what folks wanted to hear. This wasn't a scam, this was just bad business that led to losses that couldn't be overcome and lies that sounded good. Players got the run-around for months and months and months. Heck, the event wasn't cancelled until two days before Draft Day, when some folks were already in Las Vegas wondering where the WCOFF draft room was. I got calls on Thursday from players in Las Vegas who were shocked to hear that the WCOFF had been cancelled. They had no idea this was coming to an end.
Honesty could have saved a lot of people a lot of money and a lot of grief. Again, in my eyes this is not a story about an industry gone wild, contests being set up as scams or Ponzi schemes, or an industry that needs immediate government regulation. This is a story about a bad investment based on unrealistic expectations of the market. The WCOFF should have been one of the industry's shining stars, but bad business decisions and practices has led to hundreds of people being hurt financially in what is easily the biggest default our industry has ever seen. It's a crying shame and nobody knows that more than you and Kevin Kirves. Unfortunately you may not have meant it with the intent that was perceived but you did lay some blame on the players.
You wrote this:
Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?
I think that is what upset Chad and Glenn the most. I would agree that when all is said and done the last thing I would want to hear if I was in their shoes is a bunch of I told you so's or shame on you's. Unfortunately it happened and I prey that the good people involved that are owed money get what they deserve as I also hope the crooks involved here get what they deserve. It doesn't look good but I will be doing my Tebow tonight and will wish for the best for all of you involved. [/QUOTE]Craig, you are right, as I read that now I understand why anyone involved in this crap feels like I poked them in the eye after they received a black eye. That was not my intent. My point is that looking back I guess we all could have been more diligent in this, but there's no way the players could have known this was all going to play out the way it did. They were not at fault. They trusted the WCOFF with their money and their trust was badly broken.
There were certainly red flags from the previous year's late payments, the discounted entry fees on contests with thinner margins than the discounts could provide, and the incredible losses that baseball took the first year. The biggest red flag was a second year of baseball at the same ridiculous payouts. It's one thing to try to grab market share from a competitor (us) and another to present a bad business model for a second straight year. But once again, players trusted the owners.
I apologize if I offended anyone. Heck, I was putting myself in that whole category of people who could have done more. I question whether I could have pushed for more action by the industry, if I should have presented more facts to customers, if I could have prevented some folks from rolling over their prize money. I include myself, Tom and everyone else here for not doing more to prevent this from happening. As high-stakes game operators, maybe we need to be more communicative amongst ourselves and work together rather than be devisive and separate. If we truly want the HSFF space to grow and prosper, maybe we need to work together more rather than act as powerful rivals. Maybe that's something we take out of this, both as game operators and players: It's time to work together and be as open as possible on all of this.
Sorry if I opened any old wounds. That was not my intent. My intent is to prevent this from ever happening to players again and if the FPA, FSTA, FFPC, NFFC or any other combination of letters can help in that cause then COUNT ME IN!!
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I apologize if I offended anyone. Heck, I was putting myself in that whole category of people who could have done more. I question whether I could have pushed for more action by the industry, if I should have presented more facts to customers, if I could have prevented some folks from rolling over their prize money. I include myself, Tom and everyone else here for not doing more to prevent this from happening. To be completely fair Greg, you actually did try to warn me. You reached out to me and presented the facts as you saw them the first year of the WCOFB. Both you and Alex again tried to warn me last year. I give you both credit for that.
Though I trusted that that the recommendations were sincere, I looked at it as thought processes that may have been possibly skewed by the competitive atmosphere of the market. Though I asked the same questions to those that ran the WCOFF, I chose to trust in their reasoning for the "loss leaders" and their vision for the contest in the future. Bad call on my part.
I don't blame anyone for what happened to the WCOFF and my current situation with them outside of those who perpetrated this fraud. Bad business is one thing. Some people are just not cut out to run a profitable business. Lying and hurting those who put their trust in you and stealing their money is another thing altogether. I have no idea how these people look at themselves in the mirror knowing what they've done to those who had faith in them.
I apologize if I offended anyone. Heck, I was putting myself in that whole category of people who could have done more. I question whether I could have pushed for more action by the industry, if I should have presented more facts to customers, if I could have prevented some folks from rolling over their prize money. I include myself, Tom and everyone else here for not doing more to prevent this from happening. To be completely fair Greg, you actually did try to warn me. You reached out to me and presented the facts as you saw them the first year of the WCOFB. Both you and Alex again tried to warn me last year. I give you both credit for that.
Though I trusted that that the recommendations were sincere, I looked at it as thought processes that may have been possibly skewed by the competitive atmosphere of the market. Though I asked the same questions to those that ran the WCOFF, I chose to trust in their reasoning for the "loss leaders" and their vision for the contest in the future. Bad call on my part.
I don't blame anyone for what happened to the WCOFF and my current situation with them outside of those who perpetrated this fraud. Bad business is one thing. Some people are just not cut out to run a profitable business. Lying and hurting those who put their trust in you and stealing their money is another thing altogether. I have no idea how these people look at themselves in the mirror knowing what they've done to those who had faith in them.
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Bald is Beautiful:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year.
i didn't play there this year, but does anyone know if the FFPC is continuing with their practice of NOT issuing 1099's for prize money that winners choose to "roll over"? [/QUOTE]Why don't you just ask Alex instead of continuing to bring it up in this thread? [/QUOTE]Jack,
Alex is free to respond on these boards. It's a simple yes/no answer. I believe you play in the FFPC. Maybe you could answer? Thanks!
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year.
i didn't play there this year, but does anyone know if the FFPC is continuing with their practice of NOT issuing 1099's for prize money that winners choose to "roll over"? [/QUOTE]Why don't you just ask Alex instead of continuing to bring it up in this thread? [/QUOTE]Jack,
Alex is free to respond on these boards. It's a simple yes/no answer. I believe you play in the FFPC. Maybe you could answer? Thanks!