Originally posted by Gekko:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
A career (5+ years) point average is the only valid proof of skill level.
Bob and when the top prize money isn't won by the guys at the top of the 5 YEAR leader board, what does that tell you?
there seems to be a disconnect between skill and big prize money won [/QUOTE]Absolutely.
I agree that H2H and the 3wk playoff don't effectively reward skill. I can see why they do it and I'm okay with it.
That's exactly the reason that I point to the longterm point average to judge skill.
Honestly, for me to confidently say that I'm better than anyone else, I'd probably need to have a higher 10-15 year point average.
Bob
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Luck in FF is like a game of Russian Roulette. The BWaz's of the world only have one bullet to spin - the rest of us have two. It's still mostly luck, but ...
-By Bob (For Gekko)
-By Bob (For Gekko)
-
sportsbettingman
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by Gekko:
quote:Originally posted by Just Russ:
I'm ready for a good game of chess. High Stakes chess leagues here I come! here's a question for you, would that be a game of 100% skill? [/QUOTE]"'Chess,' said the Dutch grandmaster, Jan Hein Donner, 'is as much a game of chance as blackjack; or tossing cards into a top hat.' There was a pained silence, then a polite babel of disagreement: it was a game of the utmost skill; a conflict between disciplined minds in which victory would inexorably go to the more perceptive, the more analytical player; a duel of the intellect in which luck played no part. Donner shrugged, lit another cigarette and said: 'Believe that if you like.' Bent Larsen smiled the smile of a man who had heard his friend air such iconoclastic arguments in the past but was quite happy to contest them again..."
Exactly.
The term 'lucky' is an insult to the competition winner, who has played fairly, and agreed to the rules of the competition.
Here are some more...
“For little kids, there are usually only two outcomes of a game – either I won or You cheated! Chess players are much more mature than that – the endings of their games, especially at the club level, are due to either I won or You were lucky!” (Rick Kennedy)
Two fun personal side notes to chess...
My Dad used to get so ticked off at my older brother when he'd play chess, and be studying the board intensely and my brother would be watching TV, be told it was his turn...look at the board, make a quick move, and go back to watching TV...and win! (over and over!)
My only real experience was playing chess with my Dad, brother and a friend.
In high school...I felt frisky...walked into the chess club during lunch time...challenged the very best player (never forget him...we rudely nicknamed him "cheeky"...he was a senior of asian decent with a vericous vein in his neck I guess that made the entire side of his neck/cheek big). I beat him game one...I believe due to him underestimating some "jock" football player coming in off the street...when I beat him game two...I got up, and walked out of the room without a word...only a high five to a friend who was watching the matches! Never went back! It was awesome as all the chess nerds clamoured together around their defeated champion, wondering how that happened!
[ November 07, 2009, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
quote:Originally posted by Just Russ:
I'm ready for a good game of chess. High Stakes chess leagues here I come! here's a question for you, would that be a game of 100% skill? [/QUOTE]"'Chess,' said the Dutch grandmaster, Jan Hein Donner, 'is as much a game of chance as blackjack; or tossing cards into a top hat.' There was a pained silence, then a polite babel of disagreement: it was a game of the utmost skill; a conflict between disciplined minds in which victory would inexorably go to the more perceptive, the more analytical player; a duel of the intellect in which luck played no part. Donner shrugged, lit another cigarette and said: 'Believe that if you like.' Bent Larsen smiled the smile of a man who had heard his friend air such iconoclastic arguments in the past but was quite happy to contest them again..."
Exactly.
The term 'lucky' is an insult to the competition winner, who has played fairly, and agreed to the rules of the competition.
Here are some more...
“For little kids, there are usually only two outcomes of a game – either I won or You cheated! Chess players are much more mature than that – the endings of their games, especially at the club level, are due to either I won or You were lucky!” (Rick Kennedy)
Two fun personal side notes to chess...
My Dad used to get so ticked off at my older brother when he'd play chess, and be studying the board intensely and my brother would be watching TV, be told it was his turn...look at the board, make a quick move, and go back to watching TV...and win! (over and over!)
My only real experience was playing chess with my Dad, brother and a friend.
In high school...I felt frisky...walked into the chess club during lunch time...challenged the very best player (never forget him...we rudely nicknamed him "cheeky"...he was a senior of asian decent with a vericous vein in his neck I guess that made the entire side of his neck/cheek big). I beat him game one...I believe due to him underestimating some "jock" football player coming in off the street...when I beat him game two...I got up, and walked out of the room without a word...only a high five to a friend who was watching the matches! Never went back! It was awesome as all the chess nerds clamoured together around their defeated champion, wondering how that happened!
[ November 07, 2009, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
"The first man what makes a move can count amongst 'is treasure a ball from this pistol."
~Long John Silver
~Long John Silver
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
I think the bottom line is that we all want to think we are "skilled".
When we lose to a team we feel we should of beat (I'm strictly talking H2H here), we tend to say it is "luck". Luck is generally the EASY way to say "that person is not as good as I (think I) am". It eases the pain of realizing we may not be as good as we say we think we are.
It especially stings when we have a high score and lose 154 - 160, while the rest of the league scored less than our 154.
What we tend to often forget about "luck" is that when we win a game 94 - 88, and the rest of the league scored more than our 94, we say "well we were a better team anyway". Our egos don't want to realize that we just had "good luck", because that means maybe we aren't as "skilled" as we really think we are (tough for our egos to handle!)
I agree 100% that we have ZERO control over who we play each week. But based on the info of the top 15 lifetime standings leaders I posted a few posts back, I think OVER TIME, that the data will show that the teams who SCORE THE MOST POINTS will end up with the best H2H records.
Are there going to be exceptions....ABSOLUTELY! Exceptions/luck happens around us EVERY day. Is it 100% guaranteed that I will make it to work safely EVERY day.....NO. The percentage is high, but NOTHING is 100%. Everyone knows that H2H is less reliable than points scored in determining the best teams, but as a game operator, H2H IS needed. Lance's post summed it up well, as he said each week you go to battle against one other team.
I also believe the NFFC does the BEST job of any contest out there, in allowing the teams who score well MULTIPLE opportunities to win $$$ over "blindly" just giving it to the H2H team.
As for the 3 week playoff, you simply need to get "hot" at the right time. I'm OK with that. Personally, my teams have not fared well in that 3 week span over the last 5 years, but I know I have ZERO chance of winning the 100K if I don't make it to the championship round. Goal one EVERY year is to get there. The more I get there, the more opportunities I have to "get hot" at the right time, and bring home some cash!
[ November 07, 2009, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
When we lose to a team we feel we should of beat (I'm strictly talking H2H here), we tend to say it is "luck". Luck is generally the EASY way to say "that person is not as good as I (think I) am". It eases the pain of realizing we may not be as good as we say we think we are.
It especially stings when we have a high score and lose 154 - 160, while the rest of the league scored less than our 154.
What we tend to often forget about "luck" is that when we win a game 94 - 88, and the rest of the league scored more than our 94, we say "well we were a better team anyway". Our egos don't want to realize that we just had "good luck", because that means maybe we aren't as "skilled" as we really think we are (tough for our egos to handle!)
I agree 100% that we have ZERO control over who we play each week. But based on the info of the top 15 lifetime standings leaders I posted a few posts back, I think OVER TIME, that the data will show that the teams who SCORE THE MOST POINTS will end up with the best H2H records.
Are there going to be exceptions....ABSOLUTELY! Exceptions/luck happens around us EVERY day. Is it 100% guaranteed that I will make it to work safely EVERY day.....NO. The percentage is high, but NOTHING is 100%. Everyone knows that H2H is less reliable than points scored in determining the best teams, but as a game operator, H2H IS needed. Lance's post summed it up well, as he said each week you go to battle against one other team.
I also believe the NFFC does the BEST job of any contest out there, in allowing the teams who score well MULTIPLE opportunities to win $$$ over "blindly" just giving it to the H2H team.
As for the 3 week playoff, you simply need to get "hot" at the right time. I'm OK with that. Personally, my teams have not fared well in that 3 week span over the last 5 years, but I know I have ZERO chance of winning the 100K if I don't make it to the championship round. Goal one EVERY year is to get there. The more I get there, the more opportunities I have to "get hot" at the right time, and bring home some cash!
[ November 07, 2009, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Well said Billy!
Wayne
Wayne
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob
Luck in FF is like a game of Russian Roulette. The BWaz's of the world only have one bullet to spin - the rest of us have two. It's still mostly luck, but ...
-By Bob (For Gekko)
-By Bob (For Gekko)
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob I'm sure You do.
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob I'm sure You do.
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob I'm sure You do. [/QUOTE]My mom says I do.
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob I'm sure You do.
[/QUOTE]My mom says I do. Luck in FF is like a game of Russian Roulette. The BWaz's of the world only have one bullet to spin - the rest of us have two. It's still mostly luck, but ...
-By Bob (For Gekko)
-By Bob (For Gekko)
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!!
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!!
-
Glenneration X
- Posts: 1704
- Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: Long Island, NY
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!! [/QUOTE]....and yet you still had to edit it???
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!! [/QUOTE]....and yet you still had to edit it???
Lets End The Skill/Luck Debate Once and For - A While
Originally posted by Glenneration X:
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!! [/QUOTE]....and yet you still had to edit it??? [/QUOTE]EXACTLY!!!!
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Squad:
Billy
Why do I have to write so poorly? I have a hard time reading my own posts.
Can I send my posts to you for editing? I think that I have some good points somewhere in there.
Bob For the record Bob, I like your posts much better than mine. That took me THREE days to write!! [/QUOTE]....and yet you still had to edit it???
[/QUOTE]EXACTLY!!!!