Greg,
My thoughts are that the viability and growth of the NFFC and the high stakes fantasy football industry overall is dependent on limiting player churn. We are already hearing comments from past owners who will not be participating next year. Part of it is the economy but I also think it has to do with prize structure. We need more participation. To that end, adding 3rd place finishers to the playoffs is a good thing.
I would suggest flattening both the grand prize and league prizes and place a greater emphasis on playoff achievement. The effect is that the top teams in the league will actually win more when the playoff bonuses are added.
Something like this:
League Champ - $4000
2nd - $2000
3rd - $1250
Playoff Bonuses (cummulative)
After Week 14 - top 36 teams win $1000 bonus
After Week 15 - top 18 teams win $2000 bonus
Final Week - Grand Prize $50K, 2nd $15K, 3rd, $5K, free entries for 4-8th
Just food for thought. What do you guys think?
Perry L.
NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
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Hard heads
- Posts: 938
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Originally posted by Todd Zola:
With respect to the 1M bonus, it is not a secret that an insurance policy is purchased to cover the odds. The is money that could be added to prizes. So it seems to me the question is does the policy get paid for by the additional signups that would not enter if it were not for that bonus potential?
Just making up numbers here for the sake of simplicity, because there are more factors that just does A = B, but let's say the policy is $13,000. That means 10 entries at $1300 are necessary, that would not have otherwise played.
Maybe 3 people do the 12 teamer that would have only done the 14 teamer
Maybe 3 people do the 14 teamer that would have only done the 12 teamer
Maybe 2 people do both that would have done neither.
There's 10. Again, it isn't as easy as $13,000 in entries = $13,000 for the policy, but it is close enough to use this principle as a way to determine if the 1M bonus adds or detracts from the money available for prize payouts. I have no idea what the policy costs or how many signups there are because of it, just speaking in general terms.
As sort of an aside, but somewhat related to the mindset of the discussion, something I have always wondered about has pretty much been confirmed in this discussion. I find it a little weird that so many enter the main event with the hopes of just winning their league, and then they let the chips fall where they may in the overall. It seems to me if this is the plan, then why not take that same $1300 and enter a $1000 satellite and a $250 satellite, or 5 $250 satellites or whatever so you get a better percent payout for winning the league? I guess my point is the overall prize needs to be attractive enough to prevent too many from thinking like this. Interesting that you mention the last point about doing Satellites that pay out a higher league percentage. Mike and I talked about just doing these until we won free entries and then using the entries to compete in the main. We like the idea of the 100,000 or even 1 million, but realize it is a crap shoot at best. I don't know what the solution is to grow business if that is even possible at this time. Getting people to spend a couple grand is tough right now.
With respect to the 1M bonus, it is not a secret that an insurance policy is purchased to cover the odds. The is money that could be added to prizes. So it seems to me the question is does the policy get paid for by the additional signups that would not enter if it were not for that bonus potential?
Just making up numbers here for the sake of simplicity, because there are more factors that just does A = B, but let's say the policy is $13,000. That means 10 entries at $1300 are necessary, that would not have otherwise played.
Maybe 3 people do the 12 teamer that would have only done the 14 teamer
Maybe 3 people do the 14 teamer that would have only done the 12 teamer
Maybe 2 people do both that would have done neither.
There's 10. Again, it isn't as easy as $13,000 in entries = $13,000 for the policy, but it is close enough to use this principle as a way to determine if the 1M bonus adds or detracts from the money available for prize payouts. I have no idea what the policy costs or how many signups there are because of it, just speaking in general terms.
As sort of an aside, but somewhat related to the mindset of the discussion, something I have always wondered about has pretty much been confirmed in this discussion. I find it a little weird that so many enter the main event with the hopes of just winning their league, and then they let the chips fall where they may in the overall. It seems to me if this is the plan, then why not take that same $1300 and enter a $1000 satellite and a $250 satellite, or 5 $250 satellites or whatever so you get a better percent payout for winning the league? I guess my point is the overall prize needs to be attractive enough to prevent too many from thinking like this. Interesting that you mention the last point about doing Satellites that pay out a higher league percentage. Mike and I talked about just doing these until we won free entries and then using the entries to compete in the main. We like the idea of the 100,000 or even 1 million, but realize it is a crap shoot at best. I don't know what the solution is to grow business if that is even possible at this time. Getting people to spend a couple grand is tough right now.
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Ted's Cracked Head
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
I would prefer the leagues prizes stay as they are to preserve the 100K. I would rather not see a shift to larger league payouts at the expense of the big prize.
I would rather add another hundred to the entry fee to increase the Championship Round payouts than reduce the big prize. The fact that teams 5-8 basically get their money back via a free entry is kind of weak to me. This will be magnified if more teams qualify for the championship round as proposed.
I play here for a shot at the big money and not individual league prizes. Isn't that what sats are for?
I like the current league setup reference determining who cashes and would not be in favor of having 6 teams involved in a playoff using H2H.
I would rather add another hundred to the entry fee to increase the Championship Round payouts than reduce the big prize. The fact that teams 5-8 basically get their money back via a free entry is kind of weak to me. This will be magnified if more teams qualify for the championship round as proposed.
I play here for a shot at the big money and not individual league prizes. Isn't that what sats are for?
I like the current league setup reference determining who cashes and would not be in favor of having 6 teams involved in a playoff using H2H.
My mama says she loves me but she could be jiving too! BB King
NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Greg,
Lots going on between Christmas and New Years for me so I have not read other users comments on this thread...but to answer your questions:
1. I love the 14-team leagues in NFFC and NFBC (15teams?). It's one of the reasons I like the NFFC more so than other high stakes contests. The 12team format is less appealing to me. As for the 1 million bonus, I personally believe too many things have to break right for it to happen and I would be more inclined to spend more in the NFFC seeing additional prize money filtered down to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th-10th, etc placed teams.
2. Again, the way I look at it, I'd rather see a lower grand prize and more money rewarding other teams in the top 25 or so... For example, the fantasy 911 NFFC post season contest, the prize money difference between 1st and 2nd is so much that it's first place or bust as far as I'm concerned. That's why I went 7 teams for the $30 contest.
3. Reduce the overall prizes. Don't drop the league prizes. I didnt do the NFFC main this year but will be back... you won't lose me either way but I'd rather drop the overall prizes than the league prizes.
4. I live in Nashville, TN right now so I fly up to Chicago every March for the NFBC. I would love to see the NFBC and NFFC come to Atlanta but that answer is only taking into account my best interest, not the NFFC's. I love the online championship idea but really wish it was a 14 team format.
5. Separate.
7. Like it a lot.
Rich
Lots going on between Christmas and New Years for me so I have not read other users comments on this thread...but to answer your questions:
1. I love the 14-team leagues in NFFC and NFBC (15teams?). It's one of the reasons I like the NFFC more so than other high stakes contests. The 12team format is less appealing to me. As for the 1 million bonus, I personally believe too many things have to break right for it to happen and I would be more inclined to spend more in the NFFC seeing additional prize money filtered down to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th-10th, etc placed teams.
2. Again, the way I look at it, I'd rather see a lower grand prize and more money rewarding other teams in the top 25 or so... For example, the fantasy 911 NFFC post season contest, the prize money difference between 1st and 2nd is so much that it's first place or bust as far as I'm concerned. That's why I went 7 teams for the $30 contest.
3. Reduce the overall prizes. Don't drop the league prizes. I didnt do the NFFC main this year but will be back... you won't lose me either way but I'd rather drop the overall prizes than the league prizes.
4. I live in Nashville, TN right now so I fly up to Chicago every March for the NFBC. I would love to see the NFBC and NFFC come to Atlanta but that answer is only taking into account my best interest, not the NFFC's. I love the online championship idea but really wish it was a 14 team format.
5. Separate.
7. Like it a lot.
Rich
NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Hi Greg,
#1.I like the setup with the 2 mains drafting on the same day in the same venue.My only issue is the time between drafts.Imo,it would be good to have less time between drafts,i had a lot of downtime in NYC because i didnt have a room there.You could tighten it up by an hour and it would still give everyone plenty of time to do as they wished,including taking their league out to dinner. .Love the mil bonus idea,it adds to the contest.
#2.I think 1300 is fair,and will be in both events again.
#3.I like the big grand prize,but am sure i am in the minority there.
#4.Three seems to work for the NFFC,and unless there is a market to support a 4th,why do it?
Give people who cant make it live an online or phone option.
#5.Love the idea of an online championship(i enjoyed the one at WCOFF this year)and think some sort of tie in would work with the NBC primetime,like a bonus for winning both.
#6.Variety is a good thing.
#7.I think it would be great to expand the champ round a little,but imo,it needs to be based on points,not h2h.That is the way it is now,so i am assuming you would take the team with 2nd most points in the league and giving that team an automatic berth(while still including the 10% rule in place now).I think that is an excellent addition to the NFFC.
#1.I like the setup with the 2 mains drafting on the same day in the same venue.My only issue is the time between drafts.Imo,it would be good to have less time between drafts,i had a lot of downtime in NYC because i didnt have a room there.You could tighten it up by an hour and it would still give everyone plenty of time to do as they wished,including taking their league out to dinner. .Love the mil bonus idea,it adds to the contest.
#2.I think 1300 is fair,and will be in both events again.
#3.I like the big grand prize,but am sure i am in the minority there.
#4.Three seems to work for the NFFC,and unless there is a market to support a 4th,why do it?
Give people who cant make it live an online or phone option.
#5.Love the idea of an online championship(i enjoyed the one at WCOFF this year)and think some sort of tie in would work with the NBC primetime,like a bonus for winning both.
#6.Variety is a good thing.
#7.I think it would be great to expand the champ round a little,but imo,it needs to be based on points,not h2h.That is the way it is now,so i am assuming you would take the team with 2nd most points in the league and giving that team an automatic berth(while still including the 10% rule in place now).I think that is an excellent addition to the NFFC.
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CC's Desperados
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Originally posted by Hard heads:
quote:Originally posted by Just Russ:
While the 14-teamer is unique, that doesn't mean it will sustain long-term growth.
Many look at it as having to beat 2 more players for the same money.
I'd prefer to lower the overall to $50K and raise the league prizes. The bonus round is just that, a bonus. Funny that you just posted that Russ. Mike and I spoke last night and he made the same comment. Why would we play in the 14 team event for the same entry price and the same payouts? We could pay the same money and have to beat two fewer teams for the same payout. Makes much more sense when you think about it. [/QUOTE]When you look back at last year, you can see where the similar prizes for first hurt the 14 team format. Maybe you should only pay 1st and 2nd in the 12 team format.
quote:Originally posted by Just Russ:
While the 14-teamer is unique, that doesn't mean it will sustain long-term growth.
Many look at it as having to beat 2 more players for the same money.
I'd prefer to lower the overall to $50K and raise the league prizes. The bonus round is just that, a bonus. Funny that you just posted that Russ. Mike and I spoke last night and he made the same comment. Why would we play in the 14 team event for the same entry price and the same payouts? We could pay the same money and have to beat two fewer teams for the same payout. Makes much more sense when you think about it. [/QUOTE]When you look back at last year, you can see where the similar prizes for first hurt the 14 team format. Maybe you should only pay 1st and 2nd in the 12 team format.
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CC's Desperados
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Originally posted by Blue_Foot:
quote:Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
As you know, we need a playoff system. It expands the season for teams and people want there money's worth. I say take the top three teams at the end of week 13 and advance them to play for the big money but have a playoff system that runs through week 16 and if that means taking the top 6, then do it. People are paying too much money not to consider this. Yes! Absolutely! I will almost definately not play again in the NFFC Main or even the NFFC primetime without a playoff system. Taking the top teams into the NFFC Championship for 50,000 instead of 100,000 and distributing the money for league prizes is the way to go. The NFFC chamionship "chase" should be more about the trophy and title and a little less about a crapshoot payoff. Meanwhile the league prizes and payout structure should be expanded to allow more teams to be competitive longer, Having a six team playoff would make the investment more worthwhile. At least a few injuries at the beginning of the season could still be overcome and players could make a playoff push ala the NFL.
Please, please...install a 6 team playoff in each of the main event leagues! [/QUOTE]I wouldn't invest a dime in a high stake event that had a 6 team play-off with an overall prize. Why not just stay home and play in your home leagues?
quote:Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
As you know, we need a playoff system. It expands the season for teams and people want there money's worth. I say take the top three teams at the end of week 13 and advance them to play for the big money but have a playoff system that runs through week 16 and if that means taking the top 6, then do it. People are paying too much money not to consider this. Yes! Absolutely! I will almost definately not play again in the NFFC Main or even the NFFC primetime without a playoff system. Taking the top teams into the NFFC Championship for 50,000 instead of 100,000 and distributing the money for league prizes is the way to go. The NFFC chamionship "chase" should be more about the trophy and title and a little less about a crapshoot payoff. Meanwhile the league prizes and payout structure should be expanded to allow more teams to be competitive longer, Having a six team playoff would make the investment more worthwhile. At least a few injuries at the beginning of the season could still be overcome and players could make a playoff push ala the NFL.
Please, please...install a 6 team playoff in each of the main event leagues! [/QUOTE]I wouldn't invest a dime in a high stake event that had a 6 team play-off with an overall prize. Why not just stay home and play in your home leagues?
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CC's Desperados
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
Originally posted by bald is beautiful:
quote:Originally posted by RC Techies:
It is my personal opinion that the economy is going to get worse than it is now. I see a decline in the number of entries for all fantasy sports as disposable income dries up. In my business we are all taking a 25% cut to insure that our business can stay profitable. I hope that I am wrong but I believe that entries will decline this year instead of growing. I know that I am considering not playing the NBC this year.
It was not why I signed up to play. Save the money on a the pipe dream that will never occur and use it to award prizes based on combined standings. If I want to play the lottery I will buy powerball tickets. That would be much more incentive for me to play both events then some million dollar bonus.
2. I plan on playing the NFFC. At $1300 I am leaning towards not playing the NBC. There are plenty of 12 team formats that I am already playing (FFPC and WCOFF). That decision for me will be based on what the economy does. I would consider playing the NBC at a reduced price.
3. If you have to reduce prizes, make it the grand prize. I would seriously have to reconsider my position on playing if the league prizes are reduced.
5. Separate events.
7. Good idea to add the 3rd place team. I have no problem with that.
I enjoyed playing in the NFFC and NBC but if I have to drop an event it will be the NBC. RC Techies saved me from having to type the exact same thing. I agree with everything he said. I am very unlikely to do the NBC next year, and the million bonus does nothing for me. [/QUOTE]I think the bonus is a selling point for the two events. I know the chances of winning are slim, but what does it really cost you? With 500 entries, it probably around $50 per team. Who does it really effect? If you come in first or second, you might lose a few dollars but you are the teams who are in position to benifit from it. If you won your league, would you rather have say $200, or a shot at a million? If you lose, the pay-offs don't come into play.
quote:Originally posted by RC Techies:
It is my personal opinion that the economy is going to get worse than it is now. I see a decline in the number of entries for all fantasy sports as disposable income dries up. In my business we are all taking a 25% cut to insure that our business can stay profitable. I hope that I am wrong but I believe that entries will decline this year instead of growing. I know that I am considering not playing the NBC this year.
It was not why I signed up to play. Save the money on a the pipe dream that will never occur and use it to award prizes based on combined standings. If I want to play the lottery I will buy powerball tickets. That would be much more incentive for me to play both events then some million dollar bonus.
2. I plan on playing the NFFC. At $1300 I am leaning towards not playing the NBC. There are plenty of 12 team formats that I am already playing (FFPC and WCOFF). That decision for me will be based on what the economy does. I would consider playing the NBC at a reduced price.
3. If you have to reduce prizes, make it the grand prize. I would seriously have to reconsider my position on playing if the league prizes are reduced.
5. Separate events.
7. Good idea to add the 3rd place team. I have no problem with that.
I enjoyed playing in the NFFC and NBC but if I have to drop an event it will be the NBC. RC Techies saved me from having to type the exact same thing. I agree with everything he said. I am very unlikely to do the NBC next year, and the million bonus does nothing for me. [/QUOTE]I think the bonus is a selling point for the two events. I know the chances of winning are slim, but what does it really cost you? With 500 entries, it probably around $50 per team. Who does it really effect? If you come in first or second, you might lose a few dollars but you are the teams who are in position to benifit from it. If you won your league, would you rather have say $200, or a shot at a million? If you lose, the pay-offs don't come into play.
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Jersey Dawg
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NFFC Plans For 2009: Provide Some Feedback
C's last comment is 100% on the mark. 6 team playoffs for league prizes would make me walk away. 13 weeks of h2h and total points should determine the best players and reward them accordingly. If you want 2-3-4 teams fighting for 3rd, cool; but not for 1st or 2nd. The 13 week season has to have some meaning.
Pete
Pete