Is It Twue???

Route Collectors · Post by **Route Collectors** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:18 am

Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
This doesn't strike me as a "non-pickup" situation. He's not that stud-like, and he completely tanked the first game.

A foolish drop? Certainly. Hard to believe that MSW was the 19th worst player on this guy's roster. But should the game operator intervene and alter the course of play? Probably not. Since I haven't really got into good debate this year I'll challenge you on this just for fun.

MSW 2009 63/869/7...186.1 toal 13.2 ppg NFFC scoring ranked 22nd among WR's.

Average draft rank using all the data available was between 20-26 among WR's good enough to be a mid to low end #2 WR.

A feast or famine WR who had 6 games of 4.8pts or less (including a season opening 0/0/0) and 6 games of 21 pts. or more.

I would hate to see someone pick up this guy and watch him score big (esp in wks 14-16) and skew this contest.

If this is allowed then everyone who finished worse in 2009 than MSW should also be available if cut i.e. Calvin Johnson..Percy Harvin..Hakeem Nicks..Maclin etc.

This definately makes sense because this early in the season we don't have enough data to determine if last years stars are this years busts.

Although some may be right about MSW being a shell of himself this year the point is...what if they're not?

Gotta protect the integrity of the contest at all costs even if we err on the side of caution.

That's my arguement...pretty good huh

[ September 18, 2010, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Route C ]

Route Collectors · Post by **Route Collectors** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:28 am

Originally posted by Sandman62:
What rules? I don't recall seeing any undroppable parameters. Again, I think this has to be considered within the context of the team's roster that dropped him. He doesn't have to be the 19th best player on his team, merely the bottom WR (in HIS opinion). If he has 4 or 5 WRs that HE thinks are better, then how do we know at this time that he's wrong? It's not like he dropped Reggie Wayne or Fitz here guys. :rolleyes: True but we're not talking Jordy Nelson either.
In year one Greg made it clear that as commish he would pull any player dropped from pool if that player was considered to be a proven difference maker in his opinion.
This is huge because without it in place you couldn't stop collusion. What if someone else says Fitz will suck this year? Can you prove he won't...no...so you have to go with common sense which my post above illustrated I think.

larry schechter · Post by **larry schechter** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:31 am

I don't need to see anybody's roster to know that they are a moron for dropping MSW. His ADP was 55. That's a round 4-5 pick.

You like the guy enough to take him round 4 or 5, and then drop him after one week, with no known injury having occurred? That's a moronic move. (Or maybe the owner actually made a mistake and didn't mean to drop him.)

And yes, based on past precedent, he should probably be pulled from the FA pool.

Shrink Attack · Post by **Shrink Attack** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:50 am

I certainly understand your argument, Jeff. It is a good one, but I have a different take.

Historically the NFFC is loathe to interfere in the course of play when the issue that has everyone rankled has to do with poor judgment rather than collusion or something else that is damaging to the integrity of the game. I don't believe this is an example of the game's integrity being challenged.

Whether it's someone not showing up for the draft, or someone drafting six straight defenses, or someone starting multiple players on IR during a critical matchup, it is rare for the game operator to intervene and influence the course of play. It doesn't matter if people feel it's fair or not. Owners are allowed to manage their teams as they see fit even if their opinions may be in the great minority.

Sure, you make a good argument that MSW is valuable and perhaps should not be dropped. But every Owner is entitled to their opinion, and there may be many out there who agree that MSW is droppable in a given situation.

I'll give you an example, and I'm not proud of it. Last year I had Brett Favre on one of my teams. Hall of Fame QB, right? Stud, right? Only an idiot would let him go, and if that happened, then this QB1 shouldn't be allowed in the pool, right? Well, his first two games last year were horrible and I concluded he should be dropped. STUPID! He was of course picked up and did great the rest of the year. Someone could've made the same argument that he should not have been allowed to be picked up by another team, but it was my opinion at the time that he wasn't worth keeping. While that opinion was dead wrong, it was valid for me to have the right to make that decision, and for someone with a different opinion to pick him up.

MSW COULD be terrible the rest of the year. Or he may not. People are entitled to their opinions and can act accordingly. Like Sandman said, it's not like Rodgers or Chris Johnson was dropped here.

I'll guess we'll soon see what the powers that be think. Either way, I can live with it.

pizzatyme · Post by **pizzatyme** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:18 pm

MSW is FAR from being undroppable.
While he perform better the rest of the year, he is no guarantee to.

I say let the move stand.

Chi_Town_FEW · Post by **Chi_Town_FEW** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:16 pm

Since someone invoked the ESPN undroppables, here they are

Miles Austin, Dal
Larry Fitzgerald, Ari
Andre Johnson, Hou
Calvin Johnson, Det
Brandon Marshall, Mia
Randy Moss, NE
Reggie Wayne, Ind
Roddy White, Atl

Why would MSW be undroppable in the NFFC?

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:22 pm

The guy had exactly HALF of ONE good season. I don't think we should put him in the same category as Fitz or Calvin yet.

Should these players be removed from FA if dropped? Mason, Driver, Ward, Smith (CAR), Housh? They all finished 2009 w/ more points than MSW (Housh was 5 pts behind). How about these? SMoss, Harvin, Collie, Meachem, TO, Manningham? They all finished 14-23 points (or 1-1.15 PPG) behind MSW.

IMO, if there were an "undroppable" or "remove from FA" list, it should only include established tier ONE players (i.e. at least a full year of top tier production). But like others have said, the game operators shouldn't try to protect us from people's decisions; just from collusion. Years ago in a local league, we traded Kevin Jones and Chester Taylor in mid-season when they were both top-10 to obtain LT2 and Corey Dillon. People whined and screamed (moreso because it made our strong team stronger). But it greatly improved the other team too. No collusion.

We have to let players make their own decisions unless there's collusion or absolute proven top-tier players being dropped.

My 2 cents.

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:24 pm

Originally posted by Chi_Town_FEW:
Since someone invoked the ESPN undroppables, here they are

Miles Austin, Dal
Larry Fitzgerald, Ari
Andre Johnson, Hou
Calvin Johnson, Det
Brandon Marshall, Mia
Randy Moss, NE
Reggie Wayne, Ind
Roddy White, Atl

Why would MSW be undroppable in the NFFC? ESPN leagues are not PPR, so in NFFC, I can see how the list would be longer. Still though, tier 1 players only and MSW isn't there yet (nor do I personally think he'll ever be).

If we go too far down the list of players, we might cripple owners' ability to improve their teams. Imagine if we made undroppable the list of players I mentioned above who were close in production last year to MSW?

I'm still curious to see the owners roster. Maybe it was a stupid move. Or maybe not.

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:40 pm

I posted this in the other FAAB thread too, but seeing we're carrying on two MSW conversations...

Ok, here's the team that dropped MSW for LLoyd:

Pos Name Team Bye YTD
QB Jay Cutler CHI 8 --
QB Matt Ryan ATL 8 --
QB Vince Young TEN 9 --
QB Jason Campbell OAK 10 --
RB DeAngelo Williams CAR 6 --
RB Jonathan Stewart CAR 6 --
RB Montario Hardesty CLE 8 --
RB Willis McGahee BAL 8 --
WR Randy Moss NE 5 --
WR Reggie Wayne IND 7 --
WR Percy Harvin MIN 4 --
WR Chris Chambers KC 4 --
WR Josh Morgan SF 9 --
WR Brandon Lloyd DEN 9 --
TE John Carlson SEA 5 --
TE Ben Watson CLE 8 --
TE Shawn Nelson BUF 6 --
K Stephen Gostkowski NE 5 --
K David Akers PHI 8 --
TDSP Arizona Cardinals ARZ 6 --

Something DOES smell fishy w/ this: 4 QBs? 3 TEs? 2 Ks? And the worst? Monterio Hardesty??? Unless the person who cited this league as the one w/ the MSW drop was mistaken, there certainly WERE far better options to drop than MSW - heck, we could certainly argue for Chambers or Morgan too, though I think we'd have to let them slide, as we don't know yet if MSW will be any better. But Hardesty and probably an extraneous QB, TE or K coulda/shoulda been dropped instead.

The online leagues DO seem to be the most open to collusion, seeing we get to PICK exactly which leagues we join based on our draft date/time preferences. Perhaps Greg and Tom can at least keep a watchful eye on this league for a few weeks. Either this is the worst case of dead money ever or perhaps something's not quite right.

[ September 18, 2010, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]