robert meachem

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:57 am

Hey Mark, it's the way the NFL rules this type of play. They consider it a change of possession so the Saints then become the defensive team. Since they scored, the points go to the Saints defense. That's how we've done it in the past because that's how the NFL interprets this type of play.

It does bring up the discussion which was raised a few weeks ago about giving points to individual players who score special teams (or in this case defensive) touchdowns. That's something Greg and I have talked about and we're definitely interested in getting the feedback from all of you.

[ December 07, 2009, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]

TamuScarecrow · Post by **TamuScarecrow** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:58 am

So essentially what you are saying, Tom, is that once the interception occurred, there were 2 defenses on the field and no offense. Pretty assinine sounding don't you think? In checking NFL.com, they frankly don't agree with you as Meacham's name is nowhere to be found in the defensive stats.

Possession does not officially change until the play is dead and your rules do not support your statement. The Saints offense started the play which culminated with a Saints offensive player in the end zone. Your rules say "defensive touchdown", not touchdown scored by offensive player recovering a defensive fumble for a touchdown. Sorry, Tom, but that is not a defensive touchdown. Time for a rule addition, one way or the other. It's either 6 points for Meacham or no points at all but giving the Saints D points while standing on the sidelines isn't going to work.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:00 am

We can certainly talk about changing the rule in the future. We have had this type of play before and this is how we have ruled it. Touchdown for the Saints' defense but not for Meachem. But like I said, we're certainly open to reviewing it for the future.

mkrucek · Post by **mkrucek** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:15 am

Originally posted by Tamuscarecrow:
So essentially what you are saying, Tom, is that once the interception occurred, there were 2 defenses on the field and no offense. Pretty assinine sounding don't you think? In checking NFL.com, they frankly don't agree with you as Meacham's name is nowhere to be found in the defensive stats.

Possession does not officially change until the play is dead and your rules do not support your statement. The Saints offense started the play which culminated with a Saints offensive player in the end zone. Your rules say "defensive touchdown", not touchdown scored by offensive player recovering a defensive fumble for a touchdown. Sorry, Tom, but that is not a defensive touchdown. Time for a rule addition, one way or the other. It's either 6 points for Meacham or no points at all but giving the Saints D points while standing on the sidelines isn't going to work. Let's say the Washington player didn't have the ball ripped from him and had scored a td instead. Would the points have counted against the NO defense for scoring purposes? Yes. Once the player intercepts the ball NO is the defending team.

Much like if a team attempts a fake field goal and scores a td, it is not a special teams score but an offensive td even though special teams is on the field. Whatever you may call the team on the field - offense, defense, st doesn't matter.

mkrucek · Post by **mkrucek** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:16 am

Originally posted by OrCal Crapshooters:
Tom

Possession changed when Washington intercepted. That didn't make the interceptor an offensive player. He is still defense. Meachem is still an offensive player as long as the offense is on the field. The punter wasn't on the field or the return team. The defense was watching from the sidelines. You can't have one team playing offense and defense and the other only defense. Sounds confusing I know, but that is what you are saying. This isn't covered in any rules that I see online so it appears to be an NFFC call. Let me say I have been playing organized Fantasy football for 29 years and have never had this play ruled in this manner.Again, Meachem was an offensive player on the field. Seems like a common sense call to me. That's my opinion.

Mark Not true, CBS, WCOFF and FFPC all give credit to the defense.

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:05 am

excerpt from FBG email on the topic:

TRANSCRIPT FROM TODAY’S EMERGENCY HEARING ON THE
ROBERT MEACHEM FUMBLE RECOVERY TD

December 7, 2009

For those of you who don’t know me, I am FootballGuy’s answer to my real life neighbor, Honorable David S. Doty. Judge Doty, you may know, is the presiding U.S. District Court Judge on matters regarding the NFL’s Collective Bargaining Agreement. While that may impress you, he walks in my shadow on all things fantasy football.

In this case, our subject is ROBERT MEACHEM’S FUMBLE RECOVERY FOR A TD. For those of you new to town, you might think this is a pretty special and unique situation. However, this situation has walked through this courtroom before – in 2003, when I was a Junior Judge. It was disguised then as the “KEENAN McCARDELL TD”. On that day, I thought we were facing an unprecedented matter, but found out later that this situation was in a prior Court as a result of a 1997 Week 11 TD by Kansas City Chief WR Danan Hughes. It likely occurred before then, too, but records are not readily available prior to 1997.

In the 2003 matter of the KEENAN McCARDELL, this Court issued a rather lengthy and complete decision: It resulted in much discussion on message boards, in bar rooms and amongst friends. It was supported and ridiculed. But at the end of the day, it was ground in logic and withstood the test of time. A synopsis of the final decision can be found here:

This Court, like most others, recognizes precedent. It looks at the conclusion previously reached and considers that decision in light of the current facts. The Court then determines if the previous conclusion can still be supported by the facts and logic and if that conclusion can also be applied to the current circumstances. (NOTE: Sometimes, over the course of 6 years, something new comes up that was unknown at the time of the original ruling.)

In this instance, the circumstances are identical to the KEENAN McCARDELL incident. Nothing new has come up and many other governing bodies have adopted this Court’s interpretation. As a result, the previous ruling stands.

THE DECISION

The Robert Meachem fumble recovery TD was an OFFENSIVE fumble recovery for a touchdown. It should not be treated as a defensive touchdown for purposes of team defense.

[ December 07, 2009, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

OrCal Crapshooters · Post by **OrCal Crapshooters** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:07 am

I see Meachem with the points in the wcoff and not the Saints "D". I also see in the FFPC, Meachem with the points and not the Saints "D".I think the majority would agree this should most definately be a players score and not a Defensive TD.I know most players like the punt returner and KR getting their points too.Why not ? Some leagues score it up both ways.Sounds good to me. Fake Fg's go to the players. All points count against a "D" 4D.Offense on the field should be an offensive score. Especially on a play that hasn't had a whistle blown.

TamuScarecrow · Post by **TamuScarecrow** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:15 am

From the NFL rulebook Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1: "Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense." The rule, along with Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2, states: "The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its opponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammates as A2, A3, etc… Opponents are B1, B2, etc… The rule goes on state through notation: "A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession."

The above is what is missing in KJ's post where the NFL states in the last 8 words of Rule 3, Section 35 that Meacham reverted back to an offensive player when he recovered Moore's fumble.
The ball is now in your court, Tom/Greg. Make the fix in the scoring.

OrCal Crapshooters · Post by **OrCal Crapshooters** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:16 am

KJ

You are much more eloquent than me. Common sense, huh ? There is still time to correct this injustice. Sorry, i was legally inspired by KJ's post

mkrucek · Post by **mkrucek** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:23 am

Originally posted by OrCal Crapshooters:
I see Meachem with the points in the wcoff and not the Saints "D". I also see in the FFPC, Meachem with the points and not the Saints "D".I think the majority would agree this should most definately be a players score and not a Defensive TD.I know most players like the punt returner and KR getting their points too.Why not ? Some leagues score it up both ways.Sounds good to me. Fake Fg's go to the players. All points count against a "D" 4D.Offense on the field should be an offensive score. Especially on a play that hasn't had a whistle blown. Why should points count against a D when the D isn't on the field? BTW, I don't care as it's simply a matter of the rules and I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer as to how a league sets this up. But if my D doesn't have to be on the field for points scored against it to count I can see the argument for awarding the score to the Saint's D as it was a defensive play to strip the ball. Meacham got credit for a tackle and a FR.

[ December 07, 2009, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: 4D ]