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Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
quote:Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:


DEFENSE/SPECIAL TEAMS:

All
special teams and defensive points are awarded to the team responsible, not
the individual player. Should a kicker, punter or field goal holder throw a
pass off a fake attempt, however, the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player, not the specials team.



Could you explain the above further. If a TD results from a fake punt or FG, does DST get 6 points?

Thanks. [/QUOTE]I agree this needs an explanation. Why the exception here? This is a Special Teams play. If you're not going to give Devin Hester 6 points for returning a punt for a TD, why in the world would you give a placeholder 6 points for throwing a TD on a Special Teams play? [/QUOTE]Bump...Greg, could you please explain the logic resulting in this scoring rule? I'm a bit perplexed by it.
Thanks!

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:


DEFENSE/SPECIAL TEAMS:

All
special teams and defensive points are awarded to the team responsible, not
the individual player. Should a kicker, punter or field goal holder throw a
pass off a fake attempt, however, the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player, not the specials team.



Could you explain the above further. If a TD results from a fake punt or FG, does DST get 6 points?

Thanks. [/QUOTE]This is wording we've had in since Day One, I believe. No, that's exactly what we're saying, the special teams do not get the offensive points for this play. It goes to the individual player who made this play. Hope that helps. [/QUOTE]Yes, that clarifies it for me.

However, not so sure I like it! I mean, I don't generally carry many FG holders on my team.

Seems to me if Special Teams is on the field, they should get the points from a fake, as it was a Special Teams play.

"the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player",

Shouldn't it say "players" as the rule implies "all offensive output" and could refer to who catches the touchdown pass or who runs it in other than a kicker, punter or field goal holder?

It seems as though ruling makes the play comparable to a 2pt conversion where the players score and not the DEF/ST.

Originally posted by Rob B:
"the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player",

Shouldn't it say "players" as the rule implies "all offensive output" and could refer to who catches the touchdown pass or who runs it in other than a kicker, punter or field goal holder?

It seems as though ruling makes the play comparable to a 2pt conversion where the players score and not the DEF/ST. On a 2 pt conversion, the #1 Offensive unit lines up on the field and either in a variation of a run or pass play. A fake FG has the special teams unit on the field. Bravo for the special teams unit if they pull it off! I should think DST should be rewarded.

My confusion centers around the following:

1) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit.

2) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the individual(s) producing the score.

3) I CAN'T understand a scoring system where some Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit (i.e., punt return TD's) while other Special Team Scores (i.e., passing TD's) are awarded to the individual producing the score.

As it stands now, if Tony Romo is the holder for a FG attempt, and it's a bad snap and he throws for a TD, he gets 6 points and DST gets zero. If Devin Hester returns a punt for a TD, Hester gets zero and the DST gets 6 points.

Where's the logic in that?

Also...what if Romo scrambles for a TD in that same situation? Does he only get 6 points for a passing TD but not a running TD? And if Romo gets 6 points for throwing the TD, shouldn't the player catching the TD pass get 6 points too?

There are tons of examples of how gray areas can emerge with the rule as it's currently written.

[ May 09, 2010, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Shrink Attack ]

I agree with Jules. If special teams is on the field, they should get credit for the result of the play.

Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
My confusion centers around the following:

1) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit.

2) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the individual(s) producing the score.

3) I CAN'T understand a scoring system where some Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit (i.e., punt return TD's) while other Special Team Scores (i.e., passing TD's) are awarded to the individual producing the score.

As it stands now, if Tony Romo is the holder for a FG attempt, and it's a bad snap and he throws for a TD, he gets 6 points and DST gets zero. If Devin Hester returns a punt for a TD, Hester gets zero and the DST gets 6 points.

Where's the logic in that?

Also...what if Romo scrambles for a TD in that same situation? Does he only get 6 points for a passing TD but not a running TD? And if Romo gets 6 points for throwing the TD, shouldn't the player catching the TD pass get 6 points too?

There are tons of examples of how gray areas can emerge with the rule as it's currently written. Well stated.

Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:


DEFENSE/SPECIAL TEAMS:

All
special teams and defensive points are awarded to the team responsible, not
the individual player. Should a kicker, punter or field goal holder throw a
pass off a fake attempt, however, the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player, not the specials team.



Could you explain the above further. If a TD results from a fake punt or FG, does DST get 6 points?

Thanks. [/QUOTE]This is wording we've had in since Day One, I believe. No, that's exactly what we're saying, the special teams do not get the offensive points for this play. It goes to the individual player who made this play. Hope that helps. [/QUOTE]Yes, that clarifies it for me.

However, not so sure I like it! I mean, I don't generally carry many FG holders on my team.

Seems to me if Special Teams is on the field, they should get the points from a fake, as it was a Special Teams play. [/QUOTE]It's a worthy discussion as Paul notes. But I don't think our scoring of the fake field goal or punt is inconsistent with most other games. We defined it to state the special teams would not get the additional points, that the individual(s) responsible for the fake would get the points. Thus, as Paul notes, yes Tony Romo could get those points and maybe the TE who caught the TD pass would get the additional points. That is how we have defined this.

Again, making special teams more valuable or less valuable is a worthy conversation that I'm open to. All of our games have this same definition of fake kicks and how they are scored and the wording hasn't been changed since 2004. This is always how we've scored this, again, like many other games. So it's not new language. But let's discuss.

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:


DEFENSE/SPECIAL TEAMS:

All
special teams and defensive points are awarded to the team responsible, not
the individual player. Should a kicker, punter or field goal holder throw a
pass off a fake attempt, however, the offensive output for that offensive
play would go towards the individual player, not the specials team.



Could you explain the above further. If a TD results from a fake punt or FG, does DST get 6 points?

Thanks. [/QUOTE]This is wording we've had in since Day One, I believe. No, that's exactly what we're saying, the special teams do not get the offensive points for this play. It goes to the individual player who made this play. Hope that helps. [/QUOTE]Yes, that clarifies it for me.

However, not so sure I like it! I mean, I don't generally carry many FG holders on my team.

Seems to me if Special Teams is on the field, they should get the points from a fake, as it was a Special Teams play. [/QUOTE]It's a worthy discussion as Paul notes. But I don't think our scoring of the fake field goal or punt is inconsistent with most other games. We defined it to state the special teams would not get the additional points, that the individual(s) responsible for the fake would get the points. Thus, as Paul notes, yes Tony Romo could get those points and maybe the TE who caught the TD pass would get the additional points. That is how we have defined this.

Again, making special teams more valuable or less valuable is a worthy conversation that I'm open to. All of our games have this same definition of fake kicks and how they are scored and the wording hasn't been changed since 2004. This is always how we've scored this, again, like many other games. So it's not new language. But let's discuss. [/QUOTE]I'm not claiming it is new language. Nor do I care what other rules are unless I'm participating in them. This rule never registered with me before (obviously I didn't read the rules very good...a major no-no! )

But since reading it and since having it clarified (thank you), I have some concerns with it (as do a few other folks who posted). Thanks for being open to discussion. You know where I stand.

Most QB1's are no longer holders, so that reduces our chances for points and we don't roster punters, so if they throw a TD, no points for us there.