NEW DIE HARDS LEAGUE

Coltsfan · Post by **Coltsfan** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:02 am

I listened to a podcast in which Scott Atkins was interviewing Emil about the contest. My understanding was that they have until July to change the prize structure. So if signups aren't going well then they can back off the grand prize. My guess is that you don't lose that many players if forced to do this. The upside is the attention you get starting out offering this amount. Plus if it works then that's even better.

Wayne

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:35 am

Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
The only thing which which might ease those concerns would be if the ENTIRE guaranteed prize money were put IN ADVANCE in a true 3rd party escrow (not the fake ones out there where the game operators still have access to it) prior to the draft. Otherwise, no thanks. From what I've been told, this is a consideration and one of the interesting ideas I referenced.

I do agree that it may be tough sledding for them. I do wish them well however, though for obvious personal reasons I wish it had worked out with the WCOFF sale instead.

BLACKHAND · Post by **BLACKHAND** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:12 am

Originally posted by Al R G:
The WCOFF was started in an excellent economy and was an original idea that built up trust with thousands through the years. The NFFC comes along and does its thing and builds up a large core of loyal customers. The FFPC comes along and quickly builds up a very good event. BUT, things have changed. The market is not the same. There have been too many failures, too much deception, and too many people that just don't trust. And really, at this point, many of the WCOFF players are gone for good. They aren't coming back. The players remaining are happy where they are, in a trustworthy event. Starting over, with WCOFF 2, is a novel idea, but already they are starting with guaranteed prizes that may be unreachable and we all know what that means. I don't care who is starting it, and no disrespect, but things in this industry have changed. Starting smaller and building up a trustworthy event would be the way to go. But, obviously that is not what is happening. Another black cloud is not what HSFF needs right now. Sure, this is America and they have every right to do what they want to do, but in the end, if we all suffer because of a few guys trying to take advantage of vulnerable former WCOFF members and others, then this will really suck. As for me, I trust no one else. I have seen too many friends lose too much money. Its not just the HSFF industry, its everything in America that involves trust right now, from Wall Street, Banks, Mortgage Companies, or anywhere you might want to invest your money. Its a crap shoot and too much trust has been lost. Don't mean to be negative but, you heard it here first.. this idea will not survive more than a few years at the most. one of the BEST posts i read. could not agree more.

Chi_Town_FEW · Post by **Chi_Town_FEW** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:15 am

I disagree with the negative outlook. HSFF has nothing but upside growth for the future.It is all about the carrot on the stick and price point. The $350 price point is huge. Between the online Championship and the FFPC Football Guys challenge almost 4000 teams played. 15-20 million people play fantasy football. The NFL will have their own $1,000,000 challenge next year. You have to run a solid business, margins are tight, but growth is there. We will see how it plays out but I feel the number of players increase across all contests for the foreseeable future.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:30 am

I have no problem with people talking about another entry in this space in a professional manner on our boards, and honestly we all should be doing our research on new entries to make sure they are plausible. Heck, we all suffered a black eye to this great hobby last year with the damage WCOFF incurred and the last thing we want is another kick to the nuts, right?

Emil and Ian are long-time industry veterans who I'm sure have done their homework and want this to succeed too, correct?

But there are still a lot of questions here that should be answered. Is Emil the financial backer here? If not, who are the owners of this contest? Who is the back-end provider for this contest? Is the guaranteed prize money being set up before entries are taken or while they are being taken? And why would Emil set a July deadline for rolling back the prizes when August is the time when most entries come in? I admire him for addressing the fact that prizes could be rolled back, but the July deadline seems interesting.

Now, I just looked at their web site and did the math on the contests. While they are aggressive for any first year company, these guaranteed prize levels seem almost like they weren't totally thought out. I'm not trying to be critical, but the number of teams they are trying to recruit in Year One would not only be a record for our space but would blow out anything Dustin even tried to do at the WCOFF or anything Lenny and Emil were able to accomplish during their time with the WCOFF. I know they believe that promoting this through FFToolbox will bring in a lot of new customers -- which would be great for our entire space -- but that is a free content site and converting those users to high stakes games is never easy. We know that first-hand through our experiences.

But again, God Bless them if they can recruit new members and contact old WCOFF members and keep them in the space. But looking at the numbers, here are their goals (and correct me if I'm wrong):

Main Event -- with a $200,000 grand prize, they are basing prizes on 700+ teams at $1,600 each. Being the biggest out of the gate is a lofty goal, but not an easy one.

Mid-Level Main -- I can't figure this one out. A $500 entry fee with a $125,000 guaranteed grand prize would need 2,000+ teams to reach their goals. And trust me, I've tried a $500 live event and it's a middle ground that is tough to monetize and certainly tough to control costs with the low fees. I'm not sure anyone has really done the math on this one, or maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Online Championship -- A $300 price level with a $100,000 grand prize again is likely based on 1,800 teams. Quite a lofty goal, but online events are probably easier to reach than the live event numbers.

There's one more event at $100 which is based on 1,000+ teams and is online.

So overall, this is a plan based on 5,500+ teams in Year One. Again, God Bless everyone who has big dreams and the financial backing to promise all of these payments. And we all like the big grand prizes, so let's give it some time to see everything. But I have to say, those are some lofty numbers for an event that is just in Las Vegas over 2 or 3 days in September. I'd almost give them props for coming out in Year One and growing from smaller guarantees rather than this exclamation of the top prize at EVERY level. But again, God Bless this great country for the chance to jump in and we'll see how it plays out. But 5,500+ teams seems.........like a lot.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:32 am

Originally posted by Chi_Town_FEW:
I disagree with the negative outlook. HSFF has nothing but upside growth for the future.It is all about the carrot on the stick and price point. The $350 price point is huge. Between the online Championship and the FFPC Football Guys challenge almost 4000 teams played. 15-20 million people play fantasy football. The NFL will have their own $1,000,000 challenge next year. You have to run a solid business, margins are tight, but growth is there. We will see how it plays out but I feel the number of players increase across all contests for the foreseeable future. The NFL.com $1 million challenge is a free contest very similar to ESPN's Beat the Streak contest. People will be allowed to pick a fantasy team each week and if someone gets the top player at each position in any given week they will win $1 million. I think it's a brilliant idea and the NFL will get millions of people to play it, bringing even more recognition to fantasy football scoring and lineups, etc. However, it's not a pay fantasy game that can be compared to anything being done in the HSFF space.

Chi_Town_FEW · Post by **Chi_Town_FEW** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:10 am

I agree Greg, the $1,000,000 comment was in reference to the carrot on the stick comment. It is also designed for the new player as a weekly contest without the season long commitment. The NFL understands that fantasy players are involved in all games and not just the local favorite. The HSFF segment is for the player with a few years of fantasy under his or her belt looking to step up. I was just saying that this segment should see continued growth for a while. Last year was not normal with the lockout and WCOFF folding(officially) so late. I think 1500+ for the online and growth in the Primetime for sure. The Classic is what it is. The hardest football contest with the best players. 14 teams and $1500 is a lot for the average 12 team guy. I hope you can get it to the 350-400 player range. You will know this year with two weekends and multiple online drafts for sure. good luck and thanks for all you guys do. Cough, cough, Wednesday only, cough.

RedRyder · Post by **RedRyder** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:43 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I know they believe that promoting this through FFToolbox will bring in a lot of new customers -- which would be great for our entire space -- but that is a free content site and converting those users to high stakes games is never easy. We know that first-hand through our experiences.

I told someone yesterday I never heard of FFToolbox. I thought I heard of everyone, guess not. They must have one heck of a mailing list...

[ February 15, 2012, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: RedRyder ]

thegambler · Post by **thegambler** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:19 am

Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I know they believe that promoting this through FFToolbox will bring in a lot of new customers -- which would be great for our entire space -- but that is a free content site and converting those users to high stakes games is never easy. We know that first-hand through our experiences.

I told someone yesterday I never heard of FFToolbox. I thought I heard of everyone, guess not. They must have one heck of a mailing list... [/QUOTE]i guess you never heard of emil kadlec either???

weber7777 · Post by **weber7777** » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:31 am

i have to agree with Greg, after looking at this, i don't think they will get the numbers to get this going and im not going to put out deposits in hope that they do then try to get refunds after the fact....i'll keep an open mind on this but i'll commit to the NFFC as always then branch off from there if there is another event that looks good.