I just want to ask one last question to make sure this is simply about what I THINK it is about and that I am not missing anything profound.
To me, this (the idea of awarding 6 points to the individual player who returns a punt or kick for a td, while leaving everything else in the NFFC the same) is about two specific things/problems.
1- Taking away the need to ROOT AGAINST your own fantasy player who happens to be in the return game and you are begging him to just fall down so not to score (and take away a possession) and or not get hurt on a play that in no way can offer the owner of the player anything positive. With this adjustment, you can now at least root FOR him to break one as unlikely as it may be.
2- Removing the chance, unlikely as it is, that the example BillyWaz and Henry Muto outlined where someone could LOSE this event and the $100,000 because their own player scored a TD on special teams that the owner can't get any credit for. People want to remove more of the "luck" factor? What is "luckier" than when your defense/st scores a TD? With this chance, that 6 point, LUCK BASED TD could not beat you if the TD is scored by your own player.
Unless I am missing something, it is as simple as that for me. Making this one change (that I do not have strong feelings about in the first place) would eliminate both of the above two problems without impacting the NFFC experience, scoring system, or draft preparations much at all. To me, it is just closing up another small loophole.
I apologize for repeating this about these two specific points, but no one addressed it last time I said it.
Is there anything I am missing?
Should We Include Individual ST Points In 2010?
Should We Include Individual ST Points In 2010?
Originally posted by Renman:
Is there anything I am missing? 1. I admit I take a more scientific approach to fantasy sports than some, especially in football. In short, to me, setting up a team involves three steps:
a. Projection of player performance based on history and any other considerations you deem pertinent.
b. Conversion of this production into a ranking/value, relative to other players at the same position and other positions.
c. Employing game theory, using your rankings, assemble a team which you feel will score the maximum number of fantasy points.
Back in August, everyone looked at Eddie Royal, came up with a guess as to many many balls he would catch, yards he would gain and TDs he would score and came up with a projected number of fantasy points.
Last weekend, he scored 2 TDs that no one accounted for in their projection. The potential that he himself could cost himself 2 possessions to rack up catches, yards and TDs "should" have been factored into your overall expected production that you drafted. You are not drafting "how", you are drafting "how many." If the argument is now "how can I factor in luck of him returning 2 kicks for TDs in my projections, taking away some WR production", the comeback is why should you get credit for that luck, when it came from Eddie Royal, the kick returner and not Eddir Royal, the wide receiver. You bid on Eddie Royal, the wide receiver. He is a different player than Eddie Royal, the kick returner.
Perhaps I am more immune to rooting against your own player from baseball where there are countless instances of seeing your hitter face your pitcher. What gets me through the season is realizing I bid on a certain overall level of production, incorporated in this is my guy facing my guy.
2. The only side of the issue brought up is that of Eddie Royal's owner. What about the guy that is up by 10 points for the 100K, to have a WR/RB on the second place squad return 2 kicks on MNF, so he/she loses 100K by 2 points because of "luck"? In a case like this, every time someone enjoys good luck, someone else was screwed by bad luck.
_________________
Again, coming from a more scientific approach, if I was setting up a league, in any sport, my scoring categories would be those most projectable - realizing nothing is fully projectable or this would be pretty boring.
I have not done any studies, but there does not seem to be much correlation between past history of a player scoring return TDs and how he will do this season. At least it is not as correlated as past history of how a position player fares versus future. So for that reason, I would likely not score return TDs.
But I do have a local private league I run and we score return TDs for the player. Why? Because it is a fun, local league amongst buddies and as a group, we have a little more enjoyment being able to root for a RB/WR we own that doubles as a KR/PR.
If I was a high stakes game operator, I would try to determine which angle suited my game better by setting up a question on a message forum and sifting through pages of replies
[ October 23, 2009, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Todd Zola ]
Is there anything I am missing? 1. I admit I take a more scientific approach to fantasy sports than some, especially in football. In short, to me, setting up a team involves three steps:
a. Projection of player performance based on history and any other considerations you deem pertinent.
b. Conversion of this production into a ranking/value, relative to other players at the same position and other positions.
c. Employing game theory, using your rankings, assemble a team which you feel will score the maximum number of fantasy points.
Back in August, everyone looked at Eddie Royal, came up with a guess as to many many balls he would catch, yards he would gain and TDs he would score and came up with a projected number of fantasy points.
Last weekend, he scored 2 TDs that no one accounted for in their projection. The potential that he himself could cost himself 2 possessions to rack up catches, yards and TDs "should" have been factored into your overall expected production that you drafted. You are not drafting "how", you are drafting "how many." If the argument is now "how can I factor in luck of him returning 2 kicks for TDs in my projections, taking away some WR production", the comeback is why should you get credit for that luck, when it came from Eddie Royal, the kick returner and not Eddir Royal, the wide receiver. You bid on Eddie Royal, the wide receiver. He is a different player than Eddie Royal, the kick returner.
Perhaps I am more immune to rooting against your own player from baseball where there are countless instances of seeing your hitter face your pitcher. What gets me through the season is realizing I bid on a certain overall level of production, incorporated in this is my guy facing my guy.
2. The only side of the issue brought up is that of Eddie Royal's owner. What about the guy that is up by 10 points for the 100K, to have a WR/RB on the second place squad return 2 kicks on MNF, so he/she loses 100K by 2 points because of "luck"? In a case like this, every time someone enjoys good luck, someone else was screwed by bad luck.
_________________
Again, coming from a more scientific approach, if I was setting up a league, in any sport, my scoring categories would be those most projectable - realizing nothing is fully projectable or this would be pretty boring.
I have not done any studies, but there does not seem to be much correlation between past history of a player scoring return TDs and how he will do this season. At least it is not as correlated as past history of how a position player fares versus future. So for that reason, I would likely not score return TDs.
But I do have a local private league I run and we score return TDs for the player. Why? Because it is a fun, local league amongst buddies and as a group, we have a little more enjoyment being able to root for a RB/WR we own that doubles as a KR/PR.
If I was a high stakes game operator, I would try to determine which angle suited my game better by setting up a question on a message forum and sifting through pages of replies
[ October 23, 2009, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Todd Zola ]
"No one cares about your team but you."
Should We Include Individual ST Points In 2010?
Todd,
Thanks for the reply. The word "luck" is being used in different contexts. I could argue that Wes Welker was "lucky" to get multile TD rececptions last week. I could argue that the Packers were "lucky" to post a shutout and get the subsequent defensive points. I could argue that Mendenhall was "lucky" that through injury and a break in the schedule he was able to post a few good games.
When I (or anyone else) says a kick or punt return is "lucky" it is from the context of them happening very seldom and you feel fortunate when one does occur that you can get credit for. No one can accurately come close to predicting when or how often kick/punt returns will happen.
If the rules before a season state that a kick/punt returner gets the 6 points for a return TD, and I am up 8 points chasing the 100K and my opponent gets two kick returns for TD's from an explosive player he/she drafted... bravo to them, they win. To me, that is more fair than that explosive player making great FOOTBALL PLAYS in the football game and getting no credit for them because in fantasy football we aren't comfortable awarding credit for it just because thats how it has always been.
Your final point about why your home league awards points for returned TD's is likely the most profound point made on this topic.
It is fun.
Nothing wrong with more fun being injected into a high stakes event is there?
To me, this erases some "luck" from the equation. Currently, the team who happens to have the defense/st gets awarded the TD and more often than not they took this defense/st late in the draft just to finish filling out their roster. That is an example of getting a TD based solely on luck.
If the individual player gets awarded the TD, the owner who valued this explosive talented player gets the 6 points too. To me, that is less about luck.
I think Greg is smart to throw out questions like this to create a feeding frenzy as a litmus test as to how said ideas would be viewed. This, to me, is a good utilization of the message board.
Thanks for the reply. The word "luck" is being used in different contexts. I could argue that Wes Welker was "lucky" to get multile TD rececptions last week. I could argue that the Packers were "lucky" to post a shutout and get the subsequent defensive points. I could argue that Mendenhall was "lucky" that through injury and a break in the schedule he was able to post a few good games.
When I (or anyone else) says a kick or punt return is "lucky" it is from the context of them happening very seldom and you feel fortunate when one does occur that you can get credit for. No one can accurately come close to predicting when or how often kick/punt returns will happen.
If the rules before a season state that a kick/punt returner gets the 6 points for a return TD, and I am up 8 points chasing the 100K and my opponent gets two kick returns for TD's from an explosive player he/she drafted... bravo to them, they win. To me, that is more fair than that explosive player making great FOOTBALL PLAYS in the football game and getting no credit for them because in fantasy football we aren't comfortable awarding credit for it just because thats how it has always been.
Your final point about why your home league awards points for returned TD's is likely the most profound point made on this topic.
It is fun.
Nothing wrong with more fun being injected into a high stakes event is there?
To me, this erases some "luck" from the equation. Currently, the team who happens to have the defense/st gets awarded the TD and more often than not they took this defense/st late in the draft just to finish filling out their roster. That is an example of getting a TD based solely on luck.
If the individual player gets awarded the TD, the owner who valued this explosive talented player gets the 6 points too. To me, that is less about luck.
I think Greg is smart to throw out questions like this to create a feeding frenzy as a litmus test as to how said ideas would be viewed. This, to me, is a good utilization of the message board.