What do you need Monday night?

[Greg Ambrosius]

KJ, no format is perfect. I finished 3rd in overall points in the $5K Big Payback over in the FFPC, a league that utilizes both the Victory Points and 6 of 12 teams making the playoffs as you prefer and am on the outside looking in as well. Unfortunately, no matter how much we try, there's no way to completely legislate bad luck out of this hobby.

Precisely the example I was going to use. Sucks, and we can both relate.

Take a look at the Diamond League standings and everyone in that league please tell me how we could make everyone happy. KJ was 2nd in H2H record and 7th in points. Peter Berall was 4th in points and lost the last spot by just over 5 points for a playoff spot. He was 36 points ahead of KJ and didn't make the playoffs. Sam Andy finished ahead of KJ in points and didn't make the playoffs. If we took the Top 6 point finishers in this league there would be a call for more teams. It was a very, very tough league where H2H and Total Points went down to the last game of the season. There are 4 worthy teams in the Championship Round. Paul made the Championship Round the same way Chad did last year and Chad went on to win the $60,000 league prize. Everyone congratulated Chad on that last year.

Again, I'll look at any rules changes that makes this league EVEN BETTER!! Why wouldn't we if the owners want it? But the H2H battle was a good one and rewarded the best record there and the points race went right to the end. Several teams were close and just missed a playoff spot, but isn't that always going to happen with this type of great competition? How could we make it more fairer without Peter's team or Sam's team or KJ's team feeling short-changed, even though all know it's going to be close?

[kjduke]

I will start a new thread Greg, re-creating the Diamond league using the two alternate structures.

[chriseibl]

For what it's worth, it's really important to me that the playoff teams stay limited to 4 rather than 6. No, the best team won't always win but adding playoff teams absolutely adds an element of luck in that those first 13 weeks as a whole are a better way of determining who should be getting money than the 3 week sprint.

If you're a top 3 team, you're going to make the playoffs, and then the head 2 head spot allows for a small element of luck to keep a couple teams in the running throughout the year. I don't particularly like head 2 head but see why it's used in the contests for its mass appeal and it does at least add some element of interest in giving you players to root against, albeit at random.

Obviously the diamond league should be whatever the owners in that league want, so that does not include me. But for the supers and the auctions, I was drawn to the NFFC by the fact that it rewards strong regular seasons more than other contests. When I've had teams that are 4th, 5th, or 6th in points, I don't feel screwed by not making the playoffs. But I would certainly feel screwed If I was first for an entire season and got no better reward for it than a 4th or 5th place team. I would also feel like it was unfair if I rolled through the regular season only to lose a playoff head to head matchup against a team who got hot.

There's a fine line between keeping people interested throughout the season and rewarding the best teams. But I enjoy the NFFC for the fact that it feels like the regular season really matters. Unless you're giving prizes based on cumulative points weeks 1-16, someone is usually going to get screwed. I don't think that's avoidable.

[kjduke]

When I've had teams that are 4th, 5th, or 6th in points, I don't feel screwed by not making the playoffs. But I would certainly feel screwed If I was first for an entire season and got no better reward for it than a 4th or 5th place team. I would also feel like it was unfair if I rolled through the regular season only to lose a playoff head to head matchup against a team who got hot.

1. This suggests that you are hoping be lucky enough to be ahead of a team after 13 weeks that is actually better than you.

2. You also seem to suggest that H2H is luck, but scoring more points early in the season, rather than later in the season is not luck.

3. Is having your team stay healthy all season not just as lucky (or more so) than having a favorable h2h matchup?

Man, I would love to debate a whole F'in forum of players that have been brainwashed about short seasons, what is and what is not luck, and total points being the only meaningful indicator in FF standings.

[BillyWaz]

But I would certainly feel screwed If I was first for an entire season and got no better reward for it than a 4th or 5th place team. I would also feel like it was unfair if I rolled through the regular season only to lose a playoff head to head matchup against a team who got hot.

Chris,

You do get rewarded for a great regular season in ALL NFFC leagues (especially the single leagues, where you get you generally get your entry fee back for H2H AND entry fee back for total points).

This is far superior to any other contest out there, IMO.

That all being said, I agree it would suck to get beat by a 5th or 6th place team for the league's grand prize.

[chriseibl]

When I've had teams that are 4th, 5th, or 6th in points, I don't feel screwed by not making the playoffs. But I would certainly feel screwed If I was first for an entire season and got no better reward for it than a 4th or 5th place team. I would also feel like it was unfair if I rolled through the regular season only to lose a playoff head to head matchup against a team who got hot.

1. This suggests that you are hoping be lucky enough to be ahead of a team after 13 weeks that is actually better than you.

2. You also seem to suggest that H2H is luck, but scoring more points early in the season, rather than later in the season is not luck.

Man, I would love to debate a whole F'in forum of players that have been brainwashed about short seasons, what is and what is not luck, and total points being the only meaningful indicator in FF standings.

I'm not arguing scoring more points earlier rather than later is more important. I'm arguing that taking points over a larger sample size (13 weeks) is more reflective of how good a team is than taking a team's score over a smaller sample size (3 weeks). Unless you're proposing that teams carry in their total cumulative score from 13 weeks into the playoffs so that you're using 16 weeks of data to determine a champion. That wouldn't bother me... of course... that almost eliminates the playoff system entirely.

[chriseibl]

But I would certainly feel screwed If I was first for an entire season and got no better reward for it than a 4th or 5th place team. I would also feel like it was unfair if I rolled through the regular season only to lose a playoff head to head matchup against a team who got hot.

Chris,

You do get rewarded for a great regular season in ALL NFFC leagues (especially the single leagues, where you get you generally get your entry fee back for H2H AND entry fee back for total points).

This is far superior to any other contest out there, IMO.

That all being said, I agree it would suck to get beat by a 5th or 6th place team for the league's grand prize.

Billy, I agree completely that this contest does the best job rewarding regular seasons. In general, my philosophy is I'm going to agree with the system that takes in the largest pool of data to determine the champion.

[kjduke]

I'm not arguing scoring more points earlier rather than later is more important. I'm arguing that taking points over a larger sample size (13 weeks) is more reflective of how good a team is than taking a team's score over a smaller sample size (3 weeks). Unless you're proposing that teams carry in their total cumulative score from 13 weeks into the playoffs so that you're using 16 weeks of data to determine a champion. That wouldn't bother me... of course... that almost eliminates the playoff system entirely.

Chris, you are arguing that whether you know it or not ... because by saying you don't want the 4th of 5th highest-scoring team after 13 weeks to be able to "get hot" and beat you in the playoffs, you are making a case for eliminating a team from contention that could very well out-score you over the full 16. That is the equal of saying that scoring during those early weeks is more indicative of who is "deserving".

[kjduke]

Billy, I agree completely that this contest does the best job rewarding regular seasons. In general, my philosophy is I'm going to agree with the system that takes in the largest pool of data to determine the champion.

You're contradicting yourself.

[chriseibl]

Billy, I agree completely that this contest does the best job rewarding regular seasons. In general, my philosophy is I'm going to agree with the system that takes in the largest pool of data to determine the champion.

You're contradicting yourself.

How so? (Just curious, not trying to instigate). Isn't a 13 week sample size a larger pool of data to eliminate teams than a 3 week playoff race?