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It is comical that Dustin Ashby claims to be the third largest creditor behind me and Tony. Well now probably 4th with Kevin also. He, Jesse, and especially Peter Pinto need to pay for their actions. One way or another, I will see that that happens.

[ December 09, 2011, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quahogs:
Well the media went after Madoff himself and the security watchdogs to an extent and didn't take down the whole hedge fund investing community
So maybe there is hope here ?

Unfortunately, I see nothing good coming from this sort of media attention. The three most likely outcomes are one or more of the following:

1. Government intervention

2. Removal of fantasy sports carveout language from the UIGEA

3. Negative public perception regarding high stakes fantasy sports games and their operators

This show will bring the WCOFF saga to the mass public. Other than ensuring that the principals involved are never able to replicate their "efforts," I am struggling to see the positive aspects here.

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
It is comical that Dustin Ashby claims to be the third largest creditor behind me and Tony. Well now probably 4th with Kevin also. He, Jesse, and especially Peter Pinto need to pay for their actions. One way or another, I will see that that happens. This most likely refers to the unpaid wages of Dustin's six-figure salary that he was "earning" as Managing Partner.

Well how ever it shakes out this industry of ours hopefully will adapt. I fail to believe it will be a stake thru the heart. It WILL most likely throw a speed bump into finding / grooming new converts

[ December 09, 2011, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Quahogs ]

Nothing good will come of this media piece imo other than hopefully seeing the principals pay in some way shape or form.

It wasn't enjoyable seeing my name on the list nor receiving the notice from the Bankruptcy Court. I long ago wrote off the winnings mentally but seeing in print, 'There does not appear to be any property available to the trustee to pay creditors. You therefore should not file a proof of claim at this time', rather reinforces that point.

I will simply continue to hope that all parties involved get theirs in the end. I was skewered on the boards, by some that now come here and say how sorry they are, early on for being outspoken about not beng payed and how I was being unfair to Dustin and the crew because they are good people.

In the end I do hope Karma is a biatch to all of them. It makes me sick to know the financial hardship they caused many unpaid winners. What also concerns me is that this hobby I enjoy so much could possibly come under government scrutiny. The loss of Fantasy Football would be a large void for many of us and I now hope the industry doesn't get shuttered by those 'with the government and here to help'.

I too hope they don't spin it the way it is being suggested. ESPN has called me several times to say the piece is looking really good and that the FPA piece at the end really helps players wrap their heads around "how to feel about the whole thing."

I only hope they use the questions / comments where I specifically stated that while we've had a recent history of defaults from a few contests, the players have really rallied together over the past year and have pledged to stick together and help review and keep all the contests out there on the radar. There will no longer be a way to hide from player issues and concerns.

I highly doubt we ever see the secrecy of ownership and prize funds the way we saw with WCOFF. The high stakes crowd just won't let that happen. We will do whatever it takes to get vital information into new or prospective players hands.

Plus, we have several great contests out here leading the way and performing their one basic job function, paying the winners in a timely fashion.

It was a real kick in the butt to see my name on the list and realizing how many people got screwed especially the guys like Chad and Tony who were owed far more than my few thousand.

Originally posted by King of Queens:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quahogs:
Well the media went after Madoff himself and the security watchdogs to an extent and didn't take down the whole hedge fund investing community
So maybe there is hope here ?

Unfortunately, I see nothing good coming from this sort of media attention. The three most likely outcomes are one or more of the following:

1. Government intervention

2. Removal of fantasy sports carveout language from the UIGEA

3. Negative public perception regarding high stakes fantasy sports games and their operators

This show will bring the WCOFF saga to the mass public. Other than ensuring that the principals involved are never able to replicate their "efforts," I am struggling to see the positive aspects here. It was a tricky decision for me to be involved with it at all or not. The fact was that the story was going to happen though, with or without me. I decided that it was best to be involved so I could help shape the story to try and avoid the black eye as much as possible, even though it was hard to do, having been screwed by every company known to man, and some that aren't even known to man. It also could only help get the owners to do the right thing. But these scumballs don't care if their names are drug through the mud, so that obviously didn't happen.

The one positive is that people that watch will know they need to be careful. I think this can be looked at however you want. Is it good for the NFFC and FFPC? No, certainly not. Is it good that people are aware so they don't get screwed like me and so many others have? Probably so. So I do see that as a positive. As for goverment intervention and possible changing of laws. Quite frankly, who could argue that should happen with so many people getting money stolen.? Obviously I don't want that to happen, but I certainly couldn't argue them doing that with all that has taken place over the years.

P.S. Peter Pinto is a selfish ahole that didn't meet his obligations. And hopefully one day, he is forced to pay for this. I hope he is proud of himself. Because of him, this whole damn thing continues to be stressful and the gift that keeps on giving. He has plenty of money to do what is right and it would not affect him in any way. But he and I were obviously not raised the same way.

[ December 09, 2011, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Trust is all we have Glenn. I totally agree with you.

Let's not allow WCOFF to turn ourselves on each other. That's not the basis of my post. I said this was a bad business plan run by bad business people/decisions and it should be a story on that, not a bad industry. The industry didn't cause WCOFF's problems. Honestly, had Dustin and Jesse left the WCOFF prize pool at $200,000 and sellouts at 720 teams each year they would have made money instead of lost money. Had they not ventured into baseball, they wouldn't have that big hit to absorb. Had the NFL not had a lockout....well, the money would have continued to flow in to live for another day.

There's no finger pointing from me to the players. It's me asking ESPN to do a story on a business gone bad, not an industry gone bad or even a segment of the industry gone bad. I would like to explore for a moment something that was brought up briefly yesterday - The role the demise of Online Poker played in Wcoff's collapse -

Give me some rope here -

About a year or so ago I was approached by some people to explore the possibility of starting a High Stakes Fantasy Football League - They knew I played - They knew I was knowledgeable - At our first meeting, when I presented them with the numbers of how to run the company so it could turn a profit, they told me making money from the league itself was irrelevant to them. What they truly were interested in was the DATABASE of high stakes players.

They claimed gambling sites, specifically, Online POKER sites pay a HEFTY penny for names and "leads" of people who participate in high stakes gambling -

I know Wcoff had ties to this world - So I think the government actions of last year against that industry absolutely played a part here - Maybe it was as innocuous as limiting the ability of Wcoff to raise any emergency money when they realized they were in trouble -

Incidentally, when Online Poker went away, so did the investors - (Thank God - I am much happier being just a participant) -

In my opinion it was an absolute "Perfect Storm" that brought Wcoff down:

NFL Lockout + Bad business decisions + The collapse of Online Poker + Dustin's illness = Total Collapse

I know a lot of us can claim the same thing, but I had several conversations with Dustin, up even a month before the draft, and he was still confident things would work out.... That is until the August 18th post on FPA -

On a final note, any word on Dustin? Is he in remission?

The margins in this business have got to be tiny. Cross marketing makes a ton of sense...Cross marketing into online poker had it's risks.

I did it for a while and the money was ridiculous, but I never thought I'd get it forever.

If the U.S. licenses online poker it would make sense to have affiliate links on sites like NFFC, but to count on it for a huge source of income before it was licensed turned out to be a pretty bad idea.

The sad thing is that the business model works (or used to)...I knew people who sold poker chips for $.01 for a complete set as long as you signed up at a certain online poker site. You can have a loss leader that gets people to sign up for online poker and it's a winning proposition. Just not anymore until poker in the U.S. get's legalized.

So wiljiro has a good point, they had a business model that "could have" easily worked, even losing money on the football side. But wow, what a risky place to put all your eggs...

[ December 09, 2011, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: felixflamingo ]