Week 6 Top 30

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:25 pm

Originally posted by Liquid Empire:
Well, to revisit my main point...

The combinations to win any particular fantasy football league, are available at any particular draft spot.

Each week we play to score points. In head to head format, the team with the most points wins. It doesnt matter where these points come from, be it your 1st round super-stud RB or your key waiver wire aquisition.

I don't forsee that switching to a waiver wire bidding process will improve the NFFC format.

Good owners make good picks. Bad owners make bad picks. And good owners CAN make bad picks.

I coulda had Culpepper @ 1.4, I chose Deuce because the 8000 mock drafts at Ant Sports, and the countless websites had him going at spots 1-6.
I drafted with the hand I was dealt. And now I play with the cards I personally put in my hand.

Next year maybe I will try to think outside the box for once. And I am not talking about going to Taco Bell. Yes Liquid, if you can see the future or you are lucky, you can win from any spot. What does this prove? Nothing.

I have a hard time understanding why you say this won't improve the format. If you want a particular spot you can pay up for it and you'll feel better drafting from your preferred spot.

If you don't care where you draft from, you'll have more FAAB dollars than others in your league.

What is the downside from your point of view as a player ?

TradeStar28 · Post by **TradeStar28** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:50 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by Liquid Empire:
Well, to revisit my main point...

The combinations to win any particular fantasy football league, are available at any particular draft spot.

Each week we play to score points. In head to head format, the team with the most points wins. It doesnt matter where these points come from, be it your 1st round super-stud RB or your key waiver wire aquisition.

I don't forsee that switching to a waiver wire bidding process will improve the NFFC format.

Good owners make good picks. Bad owners make bad picks. And good owners CAN make bad picks.

I coulda had Culpepper @ 1.4, I chose Deuce because the 8000 mock drafts at Ant Sports, and the countless websites had him going at spots 1-6.
I drafted with the hand I was dealt. And now I play with the cards I personally put in my hand.

Next year maybe I will try to think outside the box for once. And I am not talking about going to Taco Bell. Yes Liquid, if you can see the future or you are lucky, you can win from any spot. What does this prove? Nothing.

I have a hard time understanding why you say this won't improve the format. If you want a particular spot you can pay up for it and you'll feel better drafting from your preferred spot.

If you don't care where you draft from, you'll have more FAAB dollars than others in your league.

What is the downside from your point of view as a player ? [/QUOTE]Exactly...if you can see the future you can win from any spot. Obviously we cant see into the future, but fantasy football is all about speculation. Then the luck factor comes into play which will either help or hurt your chances to have the championship team.

As far as "feeling better" if I have the choice to draft from a preferred spot.....I am sure people, myself included, would have gripes no matter what if we select a player who doesnt meet or exceed expectations or worse, gets injured.

At best, this whole concept of using FAAB for blind bidding draft spot is something that would make a fantasy football league more "strategic" as opposed to a tool that would reduce "the luck factor" that is obviously going to exist no matter what.

Tom / Greg, feel free to chime in! (When you guys wake up, ofcourse

)

[ October 20, 2004, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Liquid Empire ]

Tkats96 · Post by **Tkats96** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:39 am

If you had a blind draw like this year only the order of the draw was for the order that the owners selected position would be interesting and a seemingly workable compromise to the suggestions on the message boards (both threads that discussed this). I'm sure this idea has already come up, but here it is again if so which would just support this format. I personally would choose 4 to 7 position always unless there was a player such as Faulk from 2000-2002, Terrell Davis 1997-1999 (ouch he was hurt in '99) or such.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:05 am

There appears to be a very clear camp that says "I hate change, I refuse to think about what you are saying... I'm not going to consider it and, oh... yeah.. um, it would confuse people! Yeah, confuse them!"

I know, I know - and the Republicans are intimidating old people and black people from voting and the Democrats insist Bush is going to put in a draft, etc. In the real world, we call those 'scare tactics'

I asked earlier in my post and others have tried here as well, 1 SIMPLE question:

IGNORING THE NEGATIVE FOR JUST ONE SECOND... do we all agree, without question, that if the system were simple and perfectly understandable by everyone, that bidding for a draft slot would be good?

(Again, imagine everyone in a league understood it fully... is it good that someone can have SOME control over their draft slot?)

Please answer directly, not as if you were Kerry in a debate.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:45 am

Originally posted by Dyv:
IGNORING THE NEGATIVE FOR JUST ONE SECOND... do we all agree, without question, that if the system were simple and perfectly understandable by everyone, that bidding for a draft slot would be good?

(Again, imagine everyone in a league understood it fully... is it good that someone can have SOME control over their draft slot?)
The answer is YES, it would be good for everyone. I really don't think one can form a logical/effective argument for it not being good from a players pt of view.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:53 am

Dyv, I can answer that. If all 602 participants (I'm thinking big for next year) FULLY UNDERSTOOD the draft bidding process, this would work and likely be a better process. I'll admit to that. We would have time to announce this process, educate the interested "newbies" and establish a format unlike any other. Technically, I know we could work with STATS to set this up ahead of time and have everyone make their draft bids well in advance of announcing the leagues. So all of this is possible with an established contest and a set format (remember, even I was confused by the bidding process when you guys submitted bids for the mid-season leagues).

In time, I think the concept has some merit. Obviously, the Auction Leagues allow you to bid for ANY player you want. Mr. Bill wanted Priest Holmes and Shaun Alexander this year in the Las Vegas Auction League and HE GOT THEM, albeit with $150 in bids.

I'm not against change and I admit that if we can teach veteran fantasy football players new tricks like 1-point per reception, 0.05 points per yard passing, and $1,000 in FAAB bidding, we can introduce a new way for draft selection. I'm just not sure the time is right for that, nor is the NFFC established enough yet for that. I can hear the countering posts on that statement now, but I think it's still a fact.

In a random draft selection process, everyone feels like they have an equal chance at the top pick or a "good" pick. The draft bidding process is unchartered territory. Even in the two mid-season leagues, one needed $800 for a top pick and the other was more conservative, with owners spending in the $250 range. So yes, it is an added strategy, but one that is extremely tough to evaluate and one that I'm not sure proves you are a better fantasy player than the current format, which rewards drafting and in-season free agent acquisitions.

Keep the debate going, although I believe the silent majority hasn't spoken yet (thus the silent part of that phrase!). My goal is to grow the NFFC, to make it the premier fantasy football event for serious fantasy players, and to make it as fair to all participants as possible. So far so good, but this old dog (and I AM old) can always learn new tricks.

[ October 20, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:14 am

To add, I'm not against change by any stretch of the imagination and I clearly understand the concept. I've spoken personally to Gordon about it. However, my main point is I believe you can win from any draft position and so having a bidding process to determine where you want to pick -- while definitely a very interesting concept -- is an unnecessary step. I believe the two most prominent keys to winning fantasy football championships are getting players to outperform their draft positions (and typically, those players are not found in the first two rounds since those players are drafted there for a reason) and what moves you make during the season.

I want to stress this does not mean I'm scoffing at the idea or believe it has no merit. So I certainly hope no one believes I'm sitting here ignorant or looking down at those who support it and believe strongly in it. That isn't the case at all.

Ultimately as far as the NFFC goes, as Greg said our No. 1 goal is to grow this event even further in the years to come. Whatever steps need to be taken to reach that goal are steps I wholeheartedly embrace so if this concept became something we as a staff and company believed would help us grow the event I'll be on board 100 percent. You can count on that.

johnbriganti · Post by **johnbriganti** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:54 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
What it boils down to as far as I'm concerned is if you believe that you can win a championship from any draft position (which is what I believe), why create a new process to determine draft order in the first place? Just curious. Tom you hit the nail firmly on it's head! What this conversation boils down to iss whether on believes you can win drafting at 12, 13 or 14 (or simply late).
I picked 14. I had to alter my draft plan and take WR - WR, rather than conventional wisdom RB - RB. I am 4-2 (2 games back and 5th in points), but all but 2 of my players byes are behind me.

Greg's point about the RA is well taken. Those who drafted R. Droughns recently are doing much better than they probably expected.

I'm catching on late in regard to how to work the RA, but I've learned a lot and I'll be bettered prepared for next year (not that I'm giving up on this year).

Random draft position - random results is too simple an excuse. An owner needs to be prepared to adjust their draft plan based on where he drafts, not have one plan in mind and devise a way to get to the desired slot to do so.

John

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:01 am

For me, the strategy involved in fantasy football is what I love best. OK, if I'm not going to get "Stud RB A, B, C, D or even E what do I do now?" I enjoy that aspect of the draft process quite a bit. In my main league, I picked dead last. It was the only spot I absolutely didn't want, but when I found out that's where I was picking, I amped up my strategy to determine which players I could get and of those which ones I believed would give me the best chance to win.

Again, I believe the idea has merit and I totally get why people like it. But for me, I don't believe draft order is a strong factor in determining how you're going to do each season. Just personal opinion is all.

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:11 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
However, my main point is I believe you can win from any draft position and so having a bidding process to determine where you want to pick -- while definitely a very interesting concept -- is an unnecessary step.

Ughhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Every single argument against this has said one thing over and over again - you can win from any slot.

NO ONE has articulated how slot bidding is bad for ANY player, whether they understand the process or not. Not to pick on Liquid, but he posted a whole bunch of stuff about why he was against it yet nothing he said articulated why it was bad for him or anyone else.

Dyv's assessment is correct. People are probably against it because it is a change. They don't know why they're against it, and they can't articulate any argument against it that makes sense. So they just throw out a bunch of things that don't really argue against it. No logic whatsoever.

Tom or anyone else, please answer one question ... From a player's standpoint, what is the downside?

The pro-bid contingent has articulated many reasons for the upside ... either you get a position you are happier with, or you get what is left and end up with more $'s than those who bid. Everybody wins, nobody loses.