Originally posted by Chi_Town_FEW:
I would take this as a positive sign. It looks like to me if they can get enough signups in the next 5-10 days the "investors" might be inclined to go forward. If not I think all money will be refunded for these signups. If they are taking signups there has to be a plan. I have not participated over there but I dont think they owners are criminals. Bad, bad, bad, at running a business, but not criminals. They were the biggest game in town so I feel they cant just walk away on what is owed past winners. They will pay if they have the money, they just dont have the money. The only way to get that is to move forward with a plan to repay previous winners, maybe over the course of a few years if the company remains viable and has a product going forward. I feel everyone gets paid only if there is a WCOFF in 2014 and beyond. They will have a plan to pay everyone and be profitable with a lot more transparency going forward. The how a business gone bad comes back. That is what I feel they are trying to do. I am from the outside looking in, no emotional investment on my part. They need to make money to make everyone whole. I hope they can. Good luck all.
P.S. Maybe what Glenn said, but that would not be encouraging because that is not new revenue. just my opinion.....if you have 3k,4k or more due to you and have not been paid yet and putting that money up to HOPE to win again then i think you need a very good doctor to talk out your problems. if you lose then you feel like a sucker. if you win then you have to pray your get your money. you say they are not criminals ? looks and sounds like fraud to me !!
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
THIS IS THE BUSINESS WE HAVE CHOSEN
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Glenneration X
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:
Greg, there does appear to be signups on that page and the total amount of signups have increased over the course of the 24 hours since the registration page went live. If this is true that speaks to my belief that a lot of their participants do not know what is going on. As Frank said, discussion about that event's failure to pay prize winners and another event's failure to pay prize winners has been grossly under-discussed in the industry outside of a few message boards. This is by far the No. 1 issue confronting the industry at this time and it's my belief that not enough people know about it. The players need to be aware of whatever dangers are out there and I'm not sure enough of them know what has transpired in the past eight months. [/QUOTE]Tom, there's another dynamic in play that you and Greg are overlooking.
Many players at the WCOFF have money on account. Rather than just let it sit there, uncertain if they'll actually see that money in the form of payment, many may choose to roll it over into contests giving hope to the fact that the contest may move forward and survive another day until funding or a buyer can be found. It's either that and keep your money "solvent" or the contest goes under and the money is lost forever.
I'm not saying that is what's happening, but it's certainly a viable possibility. [/QUOTE]Glenn, even if you roll over "owed money" to play, where is the prize money coming from?? So it's owed from a pool where apparently there isn't any money left. I can think of many comparisons, but it seems like borrowing from a bank with no money. Again, I'm not sure what is happening or who is signing up, but I'm just surprised someone turned on the switch yesterday if that's what you're saying because it seemed to be disabled since early July.
As for investors needing to see positive posts on the boards or action in signups, sorry, that's not the answer. Investors need to see the books and know whether they can pay what is owed to players and creditors and how fast it will take to pay that off and turn a profit on the current business. It's that easy. How big is the prize pool with additional expenses, will the original investors sell for a loss on their initial investment and how much profit can be made in Year 1 and future years to pay back your investment.
Unfortunately, as we learned last week, there are multiple owners involved on both sides and nothing gets done quickly that way. It's also late in the game for 2011 and very tough to accomplish everything that was done in the past. This isn't just about generating a profit on the live events, the side events are the ones that bring in new customers and generate profits.
It's incredible that NOTHING is being offered to the players on the status of this event or prize payouts. I know someone cares, so why not just update everyone daily? It makes no sense and gets frustrating by the day for everyone involved. Crazy. [/QUOTE]Greg, I hear what you are saying and what Tom is saying. However, you are both speaking from the perspective of a contest provider, not a customer.
I also hear what Frank is saying. However, he is speaking from the perspective of someone not owed anything from that contest.
Outside of my deposits on their football contest and my baseball entry fees, I am not currently owed anything by the WCOFF. I was one of the lucky few that received their requested check. However, come October they could end up owing me quite a bit of money.
If come October, I am put in a position of continuing to support that contest in order to keep my money viable or just writing off multiple tens of thousands of dollars, I'm not sure which position I would take. I'll address that when and if the time comes. I do know I would not appreciate anyone who is not in a similar position making judgements on how I handle it.
This is a complicated situation that has left many a player in limbo, has put many a player in an uncomfortable position through no fault of their own. How they choose to handle it is something they deserve to decide for themselves, without having to be concerned with how it is perceived by others.
Either way, there's supposed to be an announcement tomorrow by the WCOFF. Let's hope this all becomes a moot point once that announcement is made.
quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:
Greg, there does appear to be signups on that page and the total amount of signups have increased over the course of the 24 hours since the registration page went live. If this is true that speaks to my belief that a lot of their participants do not know what is going on. As Frank said, discussion about that event's failure to pay prize winners and another event's failure to pay prize winners has been grossly under-discussed in the industry outside of a few message boards. This is by far the No. 1 issue confronting the industry at this time and it's my belief that not enough people know about it. The players need to be aware of whatever dangers are out there and I'm not sure enough of them know what has transpired in the past eight months. [/QUOTE]Tom, there's another dynamic in play that you and Greg are overlooking.
Many players at the WCOFF have money on account. Rather than just let it sit there, uncertain if they'll actually see that money in the form of payment, many may choose to roll it over into contests giving hope to the fact that the contest may move forward and survive another day until funding or a buyer can be found. It's either that and keep your money "solvent" or the contest goes under and the money is lost forever.
I'm not saying that is what's happening, but it's certainly a viable possibility. [/QUOTE]Glenn, even if you roll over "owed money" to play, where is the prize money coming from?? So it's owed from a pool where apparently there isn't any money left. I can think of many comparisons, but it seems like borrowing from a bank with no money. Again, I'm not sure what is happening or who is signing up, but I'm just surprised someone turned on the switch yesterday if that's what you're saying because it seemed to be disabled since early July.
As for investors needing to see positive posts on the boards or action in signups, sorry, that's not the answer. Investors need to see the books and know whether they can pay what is owed to players and creditors and how fast it will take to pay that off and turn a profit on the current business. It's that easy. How big is the prize pool with additional expenses, will the original investors sell for a loss on their initial investment and how much profit can be made in Year 1 and future years to pay back your investment.
Unfortunately, as we learned last week, there are multiple owners involved on both sides and nothing gets done quickly that way. It's also late in the game for 2011 and very tough to accomplish everything that was done in the past. This isn't just about generating a profit on the live events, the side events are the ones that bring in new customers and generate profits.
It's incredible that NOTHING is being offered to the players on the status of this event or prize payouts. I know someone cares, so why not just update everyone daily? It makes no sense and gets frustrating by the day for everyone involved. Crazy. [/QUOTE]Greg, I hear what you are saying and what Tom is saying. However, you are both speaking from the perspective of a contest provider, not a customer.
I also hear what Frank is saying. However, he is speaking from the perspective of someone not owed anything from that contest.
Outside of my deposits on their football contest and my baseball entry fees, I am not currently owed anything by the WCOFF. I was one of the lucky few that received their requested check. However, come October they could end up owing me quite a bit of money.
If come October, I am put in a position of continuing to support that contest in order to keep my money viable or just writing off multiple tens of thousands of dollars, I'm not sure which position I would take. I'll address that when and if the time comes. I do know I would not appreciate anyone who is not in a similar position making judgements on how I handle it.
This is a complicated situation that has left many a player in limbo, has put many a player in an uncomfortable position through no fault of their own. How they choose to handle it is something they deserve to decide for themselves, without having to be concerned with how it is perceived by others.
Either way, there's supposed to be an announcement tomorrow by the WCOFF. Let's hope this all becomes a moot point once that announcement is made.
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
glenn i hear what your saying but if you had an online account to bet some football games and put up one thousand and turned it in2 ten thousand and wanted your money and was told : sorry , just keep betting some more games then how would you feel ? i would want to cash in.
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Tom Kessenich
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Glenn, I obviously have a bias here because I want people to play in our event. However, I am also a long-time fantasy player. I was playing fantasy sports long before I started working in this industry. So as a fantasy player, I want the security of knowing that if I win I'm going to get paid. It's that simple.
Two events this year have failed to live up to that promise. One of them appears to have gone away for good. The other has strung its customers along for months while failing at any time (that I'm aware of) to provide ALL of its participants with an update on what has transpired this year. It also has a baseball event that is seriously at risk this year as you, unfortunately, are well aware.
If I was someone who hadn't been paid by that event, the only thing I would care about is when my money will arrive. I certainly would not have any interest whatsoever in playing in that event this year, regardless of ownership. As I have been saying that is far too great a risk given what has transpired.
It would be different if there were no other legitimate options available in this part of the industry. But there are. And yes, I'm biased because I run one of them. However, as I said before, you don't have to play in our game (although I think you'd be making a big mistake
). Play the other game if you want because, like our event, you can play with the knowledge and comfort that you will be paid at season's end.
So as a fantasy player it seems to me that I have four choices when it comes to playing high-stakes fantasy football this year:
1. Play NFFC
2. Play FFPC
3. Play both
4. Play neither
I do not see another legitimate option. I think it's really that simple.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Two events this year have failed to live up to that promise. One of them appears to have gone away for good. The other has strung its customers along for months while failing at any time (that I'm aware of) to provide ALL of its participants with an update on what has transpired this year. It also has a baseball event that is seriously at risk this year as you, unfortunately, are well aware.
If I was someone who hadn't been paid by that event, the only thing I would care about is when my money will arrive. I certainly would not have any interest whatsoever in playing in that event this year, regardless of ownership. As I have been saying that is far too great a risk given what has transpired.
It would be different if there were no other legitimate options available in this part of the industry. But there are. And yes, I'm biased because I run one of them. However, as I said before, you don't have to play in our game (although I think you'd be making a big mistake
). Play the other game if you want because, like our event, you can play with the knowledge and comfort that you will be paid at season's end.So as a fantasy player it seems to me that I have four choices when it comes to playing high-stakes fantasy football this year:
1. Play NFFC
2. Play FFPC
3. Play both
4. Play neither
I do not see another legitimate option. I think it's really that simple.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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Glenneration X
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
See Tom, that would be your decision as a fantasy player and I respect that completely. However, if someone else makes a different decision, that is their right and their's alone and I respect that as well. That is all I'm saying. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what works for them and considering what they've already been put through, shouldn't have to be concerned about the judgements and perceptions of others.
As for me, as you know I've invested my entry fees with your contest. I've also invested my entry fees with the FFPC. So as a fantasy player this year I will be doing the following:
1. Play NFFC
2. Play FFPC
3. Haven't decided on any further course of action as of yet.
As for me, as you know I've invested my entry fees with your contest. I've also invested my entry fees with the FFPC. So as a fantasy player this year I will be doing the following:
1. Play NFFC
2. Play FFPC
3. Haven't decided on any further course of action as of yet.
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Tom Kessenich
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I agree Glenn that people have to make their own decision. I just find it difficult to come up with a legitimate reason to play in an event that hasn't paid its past prize winners. This game needs to be fun and rewarding. I do not want to play a full season having the stress of wondering if i'm going to be paid. Where's the fun in that? Why would anyone subject themselves to that when there are legitimate alternatives available?
I'm well aware that not everyone is going to think the same way that I do. I simply think this comes down to common sense. You have two games that pay their prize winners and another game that doesn't. This doesn't appear to be rocket science to me. It seems rather easy. If I want to play high-stakes fantasy football, I'm going with the people who pay and have proven they will pay.
Slam-dunk call in my opinion.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
I'm well aware that not everyone is going to think the same way that I do. I simply think this comes down to common sense. You have two games that pay their prize winners and another game that doesn't. This doesn't appear to be rocket science to me. It seems rather easy. If I want to play high-stakes fantasy football, I'm going with the people who pay and have proven they will pay.
Slam-dunk call in my opinion.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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Glenneration X
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Tom, it definately seems like a slam dunk when put in simple terms like that.
However, complicate it with the fact that the contest owes you let's use a round number of $100K. You know that the contest can't pay you today. However, the contest has value and potential for interest from investors who if they buy-in can make you whole. However, for them to buy-in, they would want to see the contest move forward.....with participants. You now only have to rollover a portion of that $100K to play in that contest. You actually have nothing to lose but time.
However, if you don't play and the contest does not get enough registrants to move forward, and therefore does not stay alive long enough to find that investor....then you lose your entire $100K.
It's a little more complicated a decision then. Play someone else's contest for "the chance" to win $100K? Or play a contest where you are already owed $100K to keep that $100K from being part of a bankruptcy proceeding?
Again, I'm not saying any of this is the case or what is actually happening or what will happen. I just feel it another unfairness to those who've already suffered through way too much unfairness to date to judge them on what they decide to do if or when this decision is put in front of them to make.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]
However, complicate it with the fact that the contest owes you let's use a round number of $100K. You know that the contest can't pay you today. However, the contest has value and potential for interest from investors who if they buy-in can make you whole. However, for them to buy-in, they would want to see the contest move forward.....with participants. You now only have to rollover a portion of that $100K to play in that contest. You actually have nothing to lose but time.
However, if you don't play and the contest does not get enough registrants to move forward, and therefore does not stay alive long enough to find that investor....then you lose your entire $100K.
It's a little more complicated a decision then. Play someone else's contest for "the chance" to win $100K? Or play a contest where you are already owed $100K to keep that $100K from being part of a bankruptcy proceeding?
Again, I'm not saying any of this is the case or what is actually happening or what will happen. I just feel it another unfairness to those who've already suffered through way too much unfairness to date to judge them on what they decide to do if or when this decision is put in front of them to make.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]
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Tom Kessenich
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Glenn, it's not my responsibility as a prize winner to help grow an event so they can pay me. I should not feel an obligation to participate in an event that hasn't paid me so it will generate revenue in the future in order to pay me. None of this is or should be my responsibility and I should not feel an obligation to assume it.
If I was out 100K I would've contacted a lawyer months ago and began legal proceedings. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what would have transpired had I gone that route but that would be my choice as opposed to further investing my time into an event that had failed to live up to the trust I had placed with it.
As Greg said, if there are any investors still looking at that event, they should be looking at the books first and foremost. That's the priority. If investors believe there is still value in the event after all the debt has been fully paid that's their call. I'm not viewing this from their perspective, only from the perspective of someone who works in the industry and does not want to see it further tarnished and as a player who wants to know that if I play a game and win, I'm going to be paid.
I really don't think this decision is all that complicated. I think the choices are very clear and very easy for people to make. As Frank and I have both said, if people choose to play in an event that hasn't paid its prize winners they should be prepared to not be paid in the future. It is that simple because you have made the decision to play a game with significant risk attached.
I agree that all of this is unfair to everyone who has played that game. The sad thing is it was completely unnecessary. This never should have happened. But it has and now fantasy players are at risk. The question those players have to ask themselves is whether they want to play a game with significant risk or one with no risk whatsoever.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
If I was out 100K I would've contacted a lawyer months ago and began legal proceedings. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what would have transpired had I gone that route but that would be my choice as opposed to further investing my time into an event that had failed to live up to the trust I had placed with it.
As Greg said, if there are any investors still looking at that event, they should be looking at the books first and foremost. That's the priority. If investors believe there is still value in the event after all the debt has been fully paid that's their call. I'm not viewing this from their perspective, only from the perspective of someone who works in the industry and does not want to see it further tarnished and as a player who wants to know that if I play a game and win, I'm going to be paid.
I really don't think this decision is all that complicated. I think the choices are very clear and very easy for people to make. As Frank and I have both said, if people choose to play in an event that hasn't paid its prize winners they should be prepared to not be paid in the future. It is that simple because you have made the decision to play a game with significant risk attached.
I agree that all of this is unfair to everyone who has played that game. The sad thing is it was completely unnecessary. This never should have happened. But it has and now fantasy players are at risk. The question those players have to ask themselves is whether they want to play a game with significant risk or one with no risk whatsoever.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I am owed a large sum of money and I agree with what Glenn is saying. Of course I want all my cash, but if my options are
1. sign up for ME teams and Satellites now plus get some cash back or
2. say I have to get paid all my cash now and the company goes out of business
I am choosing option #1 every time. Again, it's not fair and it's unfortunate that i have to make a decision like this but i will do whatever I can to get paid something.
I lost a lot of money in Fantasy Jungle, so if new ownership here has a new plan to pay everyone full as fast as they can, I am willing to at least listen. I do not agree how everything has gone down and once I get my money my choices in the future could be much different but for now my hands are tied.
I am currently playing in many NFFC and FFPC events, but I need to do something to get my money from the wcoff.
Don
1. sign up for ME teams and Satellites now plus get some cash back or
2. say I have to get paid all my cash now and the company goes out of business
I am choosing option #1 every time. Again, it's not fair and it's unfortunate that i have to make a decision like this but i will do whatever I can to get paid something.
I lost a lot of money in Fantasy Jungle, so if new ownership here has a new plan to pay everyone full as fast as they can, I am willing to at least listen. I do not agree how everything has gone down and once I get my money my choices in the future could be much different but for now my hands are tied.
I am currently playing in many NFFC and FFPC events, but I need to do something to get my money from the wcoff.
Don
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Glenneration X
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Glenn, it's not my responsibility as a prize winner to help grow an event so they can pay me. I should not feel an obligation to participate in an event that hasn't paid me so it will generate revenue in the future in order to pay me. None of this is or should be my responsibility and I should not feel an obligation to assume it. Unfortunately, what is and what should be are not always one and the same.
I agree that all of this is unfair to everyone who has played that game. The sad thing is it was completely unnecessary. This never should have happened. But it has and now fantasy players are at risk.
For this statement, I have no debate whatsoever.
Glenn, it's not my responsibility as a prize winner to help grow an event so they can pay me. I should not feel an obligation to participate in an event that hasn't paid me so it will generate revenue in the future in order to pay me. None of this is or should be my responsibility and I should not feel an obligation to assume it. Unfortunately, what is and what should be are not always one and the same.
I agree that all of this is unfair to everyone who has played that game. The sad thing is it was completely unnecessary. This never should have happened. But it has and now fantasy players are at risk.
For this statement, I have no debate whatsoever.