Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
If all 602 participants (I'm thinking big for next year) FULLY UNDERSTOOD the draft bidding process, this would work and likely be a better process. I'll admit to that. That says a lot. Thanks Greg.
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Gordon Gekko
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Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
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Originally posted by John:
What this conversation boils down to iss whether on believes you can win drafting at 12, 13 or 14 (or simply late).
I picked 14. I had to alter my draft plan and take WR - WR, rather than conventional wisdom RB - RB. I am 4-2 (2 games back and 5th in points), but all but 2 of my players byes are behind me.
Random draft position - random results is too simple an excuse. An owner needs to be prepared to adjust their draft plan based on where he drafts, not have one plan in mind and devise a way to get to the desired slot to do so.
John John, from my observation, your strategy is reactive and highly adaptable. Others have a strategy of targeting certain players.
Without slot bidding, those that prefer targeting are at a disadvantage for the first 3 rounds.
With slot bidding, no one is at a disadvantage.
What this conversation boils down to iss whether on believes you can win drafting at 12, 13 or 14 (or simply late).
I picked 14. I had to alter my draft plan and take WR - WR, rather than conventional wisdom RB - RB. I am 4-2 (2 games back and 5th in points), but all but 2 of my players byes are behind me.
Random draft position - random results is too simple an excuse. An owner needs to be prepared to adjust their draft plan based on where he drafts, not have one plan in mind and devise a way to get to the desired slot to do so.
John John, from my observation, your strategy is reactive and highly adaptable. Others have a strategy of targeting certain players.
Without slot bidding, those that prefer targeting are at a disadvantage for the first 3 rounds.
With slot bidding, no one is at a disadvantage.
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Tom Kessenich
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Kevin, I'm sorry if you're being frustrated but I've outlined my reasons for why I think this is an unnecessary step in the fantasy process. I think it's quite interesting and it has merit, but personally I don't see it adding anything to the overall experience and/or strengthening your chances of winning.
Once again, this is just my personal opinion.
Once again, this is just my personal opinion.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Kevin, I'm sorry if you're being frustrated but I've outlined my reasons for why I think this is an unnecessary step in the fantasy process. I think it's quite interesting and it has merit, but personally I don't see it adding anything to the overall experience and/or strengthening your chances of winning.
Once again, this is just my personal opinion. I appreciate that Tom, but to be brutally honest, 2 things.
1) I've read all your posts and I still don't think you or anyone else has answered my question, which is why I'm frustrated.
Maybe I've missed something. But if not, should I assume that you disagree with this statement ... "either you get a position you are happier with, or you get what is left and end up with more $'s than those who bid. Everybody wins, nobody loses".
2) It is less important that you think I have a better chance of winning, and more important that I (and others like me) think I (they) have a better chance of winning.
[ October 20, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
Kevin, I'm sorry if you're being frustrated but I've outlined my reasons for why I think this is an unnecessary step in the fantasy process. I think it's quite interesting and it has merit, but personally I don't see it adding anything to the overall experience and/or strengthening your chances of winning.
Once again, this is just my personal opinion. I appreciate that Tom, but to be brutally honest, 2 things.
1) I've read all your posts and I still don't think you or anyone else has answered my question, which is why I'm frustrated.
Maybe I've missed something. But if not, should I assume that you disagree with this statement ... "either you get a position you are happier with, or you get what is left and end up with more $'s than those who bid. Everybody wins, nobody loses".
2) It is less important that you think I have a better chance of winning, and more important that I (and others like me) think I (they) have a better chance of winning.
[ October 20, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
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Tom Kessenich
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I do not believe slot bidding is "bad." I merely believe it is an unnecessary step in the process.
My greater concern, however, is that it would add unnecessary confusion to the event and thus prevent us from growing the NFFC beyond where it is today. Keep in mind that while there are several people on this forum who support the idea, by no means can we definitively say that you speak for the majority of our owners. Perhaps you do and if we were to receive overwhelming support for this idea, as Greg said we would obviously consider implementing it. As Greg and I have both said numerous times, we listen to all of your ideas and we want to make this event something our participants will enjoy, so when they have ideas we strongly take them into consideration.
Once again, I think this is a very interesting idea and the discussion here about it has been great.
My greater concern, however, is that it would add unnecessary confusion to the event and thus prevent us from growing the NFFC beyond where it is today. Keep in mind that while there are several people on this forum who support the idea, by no means can we definitively say that you speak for the majority of our owners. Perhaps you do and if we were to receive overwhelming support for this idea, as Greg said we would obviously consider implementing it. As Greg and I have both said numerous times, we listen to all of your ideas and we want to make this event something our participants will enjoy, so when they have ideas we strongly take them into consideration.
Once again, I think this is a very interesting idea and the discussion here about it has been great.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I do not believe slot bidding is "bad." I merely believe it is an unnecessary step in the process. As a game promotor, I could agree with you on this. If I am a player like John, I could also agree with you. As a player with a specific strategy I can’t.
My greater concern, however, is that it would add unnecessary confusion to the event and thus prevent us from growing the NFFC beyond where it is today. Keep in mind that while there are several people on this forum who support the idea, by no means can we definitively say that you speak for the majority of our owners. Perhaps you do and if we were to receive overwhelming support for this idea, as Greg said we would obviously consider implementing it. As Greg and I have both said numerous times, we listen to all of your ideas and we want to make this event something our participants will enjoy, so when they have ideas we strongly take them into consideration. Tom, I don’t think I speak for the majority. The majority is slow to accept change, even if it is for the better. I have been trying to focus the argument such that people actually think about it rather than just react to it.
Let me ask you a question – If year one of the NFFC’s rules were determined by majority vote, do you think anything that you did differently (things which you believe you improved over standard rules) would’ve been voted in?
I do not believe slot bidding is "bad." I merely believe it is an unnecessary step in the process. As a game promotor, I could agree with you on this. If I am a player like John, I could also agree with you. As a player with a specific strategy I can’t.
My greater concern, however, is that it would add unnecessary confusion to the event and thus prevent us from growing the NFFC beyond where it is today. Keep in mind that while there are several people on this forum who support the idea, by no means can we definitively say that you speak for the majority of our owners. Perhaps you do and if we were to receive overwhelming support for this idea, as Greg said we would obviously consider implementing it. As Greg and I have both said numerous times, we listen to all of your ideas and we want to make this event something our participants will enjoy, so when they have ideas we strongly take them into consideration. Tom, I don’t think I speak for the majority. The majority is slow to accept change, even if it is for the better. I have been trying to focus the argument such that people actually think about it rather than just react to it.
Let me ask you a question – If year one of the NFFC’s rules were determined by majority vote, do you think anything that you did differently (things which you believe you improved over standard rules) would’ve been voted in?
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TamuScarecrow
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I think it's been stated enough times that the "PERCEPTION" of collusion is enough to think twice about this idea. I doubt anyone in the NFFC is in a local league where you can buy or bid for your draft spot so to do it in the NFFC doesn't make sense. To me, make it a side league option but keep it out of the NFFC.
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Greg and Tom,
Isn't one of the ways to attract more people to make them feel comfortable and add enjoyment? Personally, I would be much more comfortable knowing that I have a good shot at a middle draft position where I will have time to evaluate each pick (I hate picking on the ends). Others will feel more comfortable knowing that they have a shot at a top draft pick. Still others will enjoy watching others "waste" their free agent budget when they feel their draft spot doesn't matter.
In other words, there are positives for all kinds of people. Most of all, if some other *reputable* organization added this to their game, I might be more attracted to that contest.
[ October 20, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Rob K ]
Isn't one of the ways to attract more people to make them feel comfortable and add enjoyment? Personally, I would be much more comfortable knowing that I have a good shot at a middle draft position where I will have time to evaluate each pick (I hate picking on the ends). Others will feel more comfortable knowing that they have a shot at a top draft pick. Still others will enjoy watching others "waste" their free agent budget when they feel their draft spot doesn't matter.
In other words, there are positives for all kinds of people. Most of all, if some other *reputable* organization added this to their game, I might be more attracted to that contest.
[ October 20, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Rob K ]
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Tom Kessenich
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Originally posted by KJ Duke:
Let me ask you a question – If year one of the NFFC’s rules were determined by majority vote, do you think anything that you did differently (things which you believe you improved over standard rules) would’ve been voted in? If there are things we can do differently to improve the event then absolutely we'd want to look into them and make changes where needed. Personally, I think we have a great event and I like the way it's set up and I don't have any problems with any of the rules that have been established. But that doesn't mean we won't listen and make changes should they prove to be beneficial to our event and to all of our participants.
Let me ask you a question – If year one of the NFFC’s rules were determined by majority vote, do you think anything that you did differently (things which you believe you improved over standard rules) would’ve been voted in? If there are things we can do differently to improve the event then absolutely we'd want to look into them and make changes where needed. Personally, I think we have a great event and I like the way it's set up and I don't have any problems with any of the rules that have been established. But that doesn't mean we won't listen and make changes should they prove to be beneficial to our event and to all of our participants.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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David Wooderson
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Originally posted by Dyv:
IGNORING THE NEGATIVE FOR JUST ONE SECOND... do we all agree, without question, that if the system were simple and perfectly understandable by everyone, that bidding for a draft slot would be good? Even if it were a simple process, and trust me it would never be simple, you had people drafting Buckhalter and Shipp this year, I don't agree with bidding on draft slots at all. To me, this is like the NBA contemplating the removal of the 3 point line. Why change it? Its just a bunch of people trying to figure out why scoring is down so they overreact and blame the 3 point line instead of blaming the garbage players that come into the league at 18 every year.
In these types of contests, the draft determines 90% of your season. It is THE most important day of the season, and it should be. There is a school out there that hates this and thinks it shouldnt be like this and they should be able to make trades and pick up great free agents so the rosters should only be 5 players, etc...There is a place for those types of leagues, and those are local leagues. And thats why there are 100 John Does that roll into these things every year and get humbled real fast. This isnt a local league where you can screw your neighbor by getting Randy Moss for a case of Bud Light, its the best of the best. Championships arent given away here, they are earned. The problem is, this isnt a local league and alot of people have the same mindset.
The other thing is let's say you could bid on your draft spot. Well how many people would have bid on the 4th and 6th spots to get Portis and McCallister? Im sure alot would have, including myself, and look how that has turned out. What about people that bid up to get Holt or Harrison, or Jamal Lewis? I guarantee you that if we did bid on draft slots, this thread would be replaced with "Why Bidding on Free Agents Sucks". Everyone would be talking about how it serves no purpose because the guy they paid to draft, is underperforming and that if this was a normal draft, they wouldnt have been forced to spend money and make that decision.
There are 8 teams already this season that don't have the same starting running back as they were expected to starting the season. That's 25% of the league. Someone is trying to make the argument that it would penalize owners and level out the playing field because people that bid on a high draft spot to get a top RB, wouldn't be able to get someone like a Droughns. Please, Droughns was available almost in every league until 2 weeks ago. With Quention Griffin fumbling like he was and Shanahan never liking Tatum Bell, you knew someone was going to get a chance. You could have bid $999 on the first round slot and had enough left over to get Droughns, $1, because that is all you would have needed.
The same argument is being made that 3 running backs are impossible to be taken from a later spot. Thats wrong again. Incredously, some of these same people at the beginning of the season, were talking about how taking 3 running backs was a terrible strategy and how it doesnt work. (Remember all those threads because Im sure they are still on here.) Now some of the same people are using, not being able to go RB/RB/RB, as part of their argument as to why a bidding draft system is better than the normal draft system. Talk about playing both sides of the fence and talking like John Kerry.
The funny thing in all of this, is having 3 good RBs isnt really going to matter in the overall playoffs. Having 3 good RBs means you have a team that is built for the regular season, and it helps you deal with the bye weeks better. It puts you in a better position to make it to the big dance, doesn't mean you are going to win it. Having a team with Culpepper or Manning or Holt or Moss means you have a team that is built for the postseason, because in a 3 week playoff where everyone is virtually back to even, a 400 yard 5 TD day is going to be tough to overcome for someone who gets 17 points from each of their running backs. Two very different ways to build your team, yet 2 effective ways. You just try to make it to the finals, and let the chips fall where they may, but I wouldnt be surpised that if a team with Manning or Culpepper, is the overall winner.
This style of draft is the most fair way and the best. Someone made the comment that they pay to win, not have it be luck who they draft. Luck my ass, they could have drafted Tom Jones, Brian Westbrook, Tiki Barber, Curtis Martin, Antonio Gates, Eric Johnson, Javon Walker, and the list goes on and on no matter where and the hell they bid.
You CAN WIN from any draft spot. It happens every year. I think people need to start looking at how well they draft in the middle rounds, or their draft strategy going in, because that makes a hell of a lot more difference if you have a good team or not, much more so than who you picked in the first round.
What happens to the person that wins this whole thing, is he just lucky????? If there was an auction for draft spots, the pundits would have crushed him? This whole thread really just sounds like a bunch of excuses. Everyone that plays fantasy long enough has some bad breaks, it's inevitable and there are going to be years where you just get knocked out. Just like if you were playing poker and went all in pre-flop with pocket aces. Some dumb ass calls you with a 2-8 offsuit and hits a flop of 2-2-8. Does it suck? Most certainly, but what are you going to do, change the rules of Hold Em. You didnt have to go all in with your Aces, just like you didnt have to draft Player X at Spot X. The only way this argument holds any merit is if the top 7 consensus picks were just rolling over everyone's ass year in and year out, and that just isnt the case.
Now speaking of cards, when are you going to come to downtown Detorit and play with me and Scott!!!
IGNORING THE NEGATIVE FOR JUST ONE SECOND... do we all agree, without question, that if the system were simple and perfectly understandable by everyone, that bidding for a draft slot would be good? Even if it were a simple process, and trust me it would never be simple, you had people drafting Buckhalter and Shipp this year, I don't agree with bidding on draft slots at all. To me, this is like the NBA contemplating the removal of the 3 point line. Why change it? Its just a bunch of people trying to figure out why scoring is down so they overreact and blame the 3 point line instead of blaming the garbage players that come into the league at 18 every year.
In these types of contests, the draft determines 90% of your season. It is THE most important day of the season, and it should be. There is a school out there that hates this and thinks it shouldnt be like this and they should be able to make trades and pick up great free agents so the rosters should only be 5 players, etc...There is a place for those types of leagues, and those are local leagues. And thats why there are 100 John Does that roll into these things every year and get humbled real fast. This isnt a local league where you can screw your neighbor by getting Randy Moss for a case of Bud Light, its the best of the best. Championships arent given away here, they are earned. The problem is, this isnt a local league and alot of people have the same mindset.
The other thing is let's say you could bid on your draft spot. Well how many people would have bid on the 4th and 6th spots to get Portis and McCallister? Im sure alot would have, including myself, and look how that has turned out. What about people that bid up to get Holt or Harrison, or Jamal Lewis? I guarantee you that if we did bid on draft slots, this thread would be replaced with "Why Bidding on Free Agents Sucks". Everyone would be talking about how it serves no purpose because the guy they paid to draft, is underperforming and that if this was a normal draft, they wouldnt have been forced to spend money and make that decision.
There are 8 teams already this season that don't have the same starting running back as they were expected to starting the season. That's 25% of the league. Someone is trying to make the argument that it would penalize owners and level out the playing field because people that bid on a high draft spot to get a top RB, wouldn't be able to get someone like a Droughns. Please, Droughns was available almost in every league until 2 weeks ago. With Quention Griffin fumbling like he was and Shanahan never liking Tatum Bell, you knew someone was going to get a chance. You could have bid $999 on the first round slot and had enough left over to get Droughns, $1, because that is all you would have needed.
The same argument is being made that 3 running backs are impossible to be taken from a later spot. Thats wrong again. Incredously, some of these same people at the beginning of the season, were talking about how taking 3 running backs was a terrible strategy and how it doesnt work. (Remember all those threads because Im sure they are still on here.) Now some of the same people are using, not being able to go RB/RB/RB, as part of their argument as to why a bidding draft system is better than the normal draft system. Talk about playing both sides of the fence and talking like John Kerry.
The funny thing in all of this, is having 3 good RBs isnt really going to matter in the overall playoffs. Having 3 good RBs means you have a team that is built for the regular season, and it helps you deal with the bye weeks better. It puts you in a better position to make it to the big dance, doesn't mean you are going to win it. Having a team with Culpepper or Manning or Holt or Moss means you have a team that is built for the postseason, because in a 3 week playoff where everyone is virtually back to even, a 400 yard 5 TD day is going to be tough to overcome for someone who gets 17 points from each of their running backs. Two very different ways to build your team, yet 2 effective ways. You just try to make it to the finals, and let the chips fall where they may, but I wouldnt be surpised that if a team with Manning or Culpepper, is the overall winner.
This style of draft is the most fair way and the best. Someone made the comment that they pay to win, not have it be luck who they draft. Luck my ass, they could have drafted Tom Jones, Brian Westbrook, Tiki Barber, Curtis Martin, Antonio Gates, Eric Johnson, Javon Walker, and the list goes on and on no matter where and the hell they bid.
You CAN WIN from any draft spot. It happens every year. I think people need to start looking at how well they draft in the middle rounds, or their draft strategy going in, because that makes a hell of a lot more difference if you have a good team or not, much more so than who you picked in the first round.
What happens to the person that wins this whole thing, is he just lucky????? If there was an auction for draft spots, the pundits would have crushed him? This whole thread really just sounds like a bunch of excuses. Everyone that plays fantasy long enough has some bad breaks, it's inevitable and there are going to be years where you just get knocked out. Just like if you were playing poker and went all in pre-flop with pocket aces. Some dumb ass calls you with a 2-8 offsuit and hits a flop of 2-2-8. Does it suck? Most certainly, but what are you going to do, change the rules of Hold Em. You didnt have to go all in with your Aces, just like you didnt have to draft Player X at Spot X. The only way this argument holds any merit is if the top 7 consensus picks were just rolling over everyone's ass year in and year out, and that just isnt the case.
Now speaking of cards, when are you going to come to downtown Detorit and play with me and Scott!!!