Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Pat, I'm not talking about Rodgers specifically. He's obviously well beyond Tebow both in the NFL and fantasy. I'm talking about Tebow being held to a standard that no other QB appears to be in terms of matchups. Gee, maybe it's because other QBs don't have 36-page message board homages in which every week it's touted "He did it AGAIN! Oh boy!". When "it" is simply the "miraculous" feat of averaging 22 PPG. :rolleyes:
Wanna talk about the other QBs? Ok, let's.
Let's first omit the obvious top-5: Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Newton, Stafford are all every-week matchup-proof fantasy starters. No need to hold them to any high standard; they SET the standard!
Let's also omit anyone who wasn't or still wouldn't be drafted as an NFFC starting QB because that's what we've been talking an awful lot about here - how Tebow measures up in that regard. So ignore Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Smith, Freeman, McCoy, etc.. Yes, there may be some unfortunate teams still starting them, but not by choice. So why are these guys not under a microscope? Uhh... cuz they SUCK and cuz no one is out here selling them as legit top-10 potential NFFC QBs.
That leaves the QBs between the top-5 and Tebow: Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez.
Tebow vs. other similar "NFFC starter-caliber" QBs since he became a starter (8 games)
Hmmm... do we really need to hold most of these guys to a higher standard, when they're already outscoring him AND all but one of them is a proven NFL and fantasy starting QB? I haven't gone back and drilled into each and every game these guys have played since they became starters, but I don't think that's necessary at all because they have multiyear proven track records and we don't need to look at their opponents over their entire careers to know that they haven't had every single game be against either a terrible run or pass defense or a terrible offense. Noooo, they've played multiple years and we can surely assume that the sampling size of games is big enough to have evened out in that area. Nor have they likely nearly-doubled their fantasy production in the final 3-5 minutes of every game (though I honestly won't be wasting the time to try to dig through those numbers either, as it's pretty ridiculous to even wonder).
The bottom line is that some of us feel that Tebow's current level of barely-startable NFFC QB production will not be sustained longterm (i.e. next year) due to the" peculiarity" with which he's obtained those numbers. We get it though that some of you think that, not only will he sustain them, he'll improve upon them! But do you truly not see the risk of how and when he gets his points and how he looks doing it as compared to the other similar starting QBs I listed? Really? You'd draft him next year over Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger? Cuz if you would, then you're saying he's a top-10. We disagree - adamantly (obviously ). [/QUOTE]He will be a top 10 fantasy QB next year. His rushing yards and ability to rush for TD's is not to the level of Cam, but puts him at a level where he can have 2 TD's in any given game, even when he has a bad game. Here is what will be Tebows typical stat line next year: 10-19 150 Yds 1-TD - 60 RuYds 1-TD - Like it or not, that's 25 points and that is a top 10 QB. Considering he is a running qb that can and will top 1,000 rushing yds in a season (515 in 8 games this year), in our scoring system and most others, that is 100 fantasy points, or the equal to nearly 17 TD passes!!!Add that to his passing TDs and see where he matches up to Big Ben or Matt Ryan. He is a top 10 QB. As far as reality, he is a top 10 QB just by the fact he is 7-1 as a starter and has led his team to victories in improbable ways, and has brought his team from the bottom, to leading the division at 8-5, and has proven he is worthy to be in the NFL as a starting QB. I don't think anyone is saying he is an elite QB. The "Stop the madness" movement is deteriorating fast. You might want to jump on the Merrill Hoge and Stephen A Smith, humble express, before its too late.
[ December 14, 2011, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
-
CoMoHusker
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Al R G:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Pat, I'm not talking about Rodgers specifically. He's obviously well beyond Tebow both in the NFL and fantasy. I'm talking about Tebow being held to a standard that no other QB appears to be in terms of matchups. Gee, maybe it's because other QBs don't have 36-page message board homages in which every week it's touted "He did it AGAIN! Oh boy!". When "it" is simply the "miraculous" feat of averaging 22 PPG. :rolleyes:
Wanna talk about the other QBs? Ok, let's.
Let's first omit the obvious top-5: Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Newton, Stafford are all every-week matchup-proof fantasy starters. No need to hold them to any high standard; they SET the standard!
Let's also omit anyone who wasn't or still wouldn't be drafted as an NFFC starting QB because that's what we've been talking an awful lot about here - how Tebow measures up in that regard. So ignore Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Smith, Freeman, McCoy, etc.. Yes, there may be some unfortunate teams still starting them, but not by choice. So why are these guys not under a microscope? Uhh... cuz they SUCK and cuz no one is out here selling them as legit top-10 potential NFFC QBs.
That leaves the QBs between the top-5 and Tebow: Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez.
Tebow vs. other similar "NFFC starter-caliber" QBs since he became a starter (8 games)
Hmmm... do we really need to hold most of these guys to a higher standard, when they're already outscoring him AND all but one of them is a proven NFL and fantasy starting QB? I haven't gone back and drilled into each and every game these guys have played since they became starters, but I don't think that's necessary at all because they have multiyear proven track records and we don't need to look at their opponents over their entire careers to know that they haven't had every single game be against either a terrible run or pass defense or a terrible offense. Noooo, they've played multiple years and we can surely assume that the sampling size of games is big enough to have evened out in that area. Nor have they likely nearly-doubled their fantasy production in the final 3-5 minutes of every game (though I honestly won't be wasting the time to try to dig through those numbers either, as it's pretty ridiculous to even wonder).
The bottom line is that some of us feel that Tebow's current level of barely-startable NFFC QB production will not be sustained longterm (i.e. next year) due to the" peculiarity" with which he's obtained those numbers. We get it though that some of you think that, not only will he sustain them, he'll improve upon them! But do you truly not see the risk of how and when he gets his points and how he looks doing it as compared to the other similar starting QBs I listed? Really? You'd draft him next year over Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger? Cuz if you would, then you're saying he's a top-10. We disagree - adamantly (obviously ). [/QUOTE]He will be a top 10 fantasy QB next year. His rushing yards and ability to rush for TD's is not to the level of Cam, but puts him at a level where he can have 2 TD's in any given game, even when he has a bad game. Here is what will be Tebows typical stat line next year: 10-19 150 Yds 1-TD - 60 RuYds 1-TD - Like it or not, that's 25 points and that is a top 10 QB. As far as fantasy, he is a top 10 QB. As far as reality, he is a top 10 QB just by the fact he is 7-1 as a starter and has led his team to victories in improbable ways, and has brought his team from the bottom, to leading the division at 8-5, and has proven he is worthy to be in the NFL as a starting QB. I don't think anyone is saying he is an elite QB. The "Stop the madness" movement is deteriorating fast. You might want to jump on the Merrill Hoge and Stephen A Smith, humble express, before its too late. [/QUOTE]There is no way you can say he's a top 10 QB for the simple fact that he's 7-1. You can poll every GM, coach, and scout in the league and I guarantee that he's not in the consensus top 10.
He looks likely to be leading his team to a division title in a division that his team may be the only one with a winning record. I can also guarantee that a team like the Steelers or Ravens would welcome that a playoff match up with the Broncos with open arms.
I think they lose to the Patriots this week. If that is true, the Broncos would have beaten only one team this year that is headed to the play-offs. That team is the Jets and they are not locked by any means.
So, you have to ask yourself, if Tebow is a top 10 QB next year and plays a schedule as brutal as the Chiefs were faced with this year, will these miraculous 4th quarter comebacks continue? The Bronco defense may not be able to keep their team in the game while Tebow puts up three quarters of ineffective football. Wouldn't you feel much more comfortable with a player like E. Manning, Big Ben, or Romo?
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Pat, I'm not talking about Rodgers specifically. He's obviously well beyond Tebow both in the NFL and fantasy. I'm talking about Tebow being held to a standard that no other QB appears to be in terms of matchups. Gee, maybe it's because other QBs don't have 36-page message board homages in which every week it's touted "He did it AGAIN! Oh boy!". When "it" is simply the "miraculous" feat of averaging 22 PPG. :rolleyes:
Wanna talk about the other QBs? Ok, let's.
Let's first omit the obvious top-5: Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Newton, Stafford are all every-week matchup-proof fantasy starters. No need to hold them to any high standard; they SET the standard!
Let's also omit anyone who wasn't or still wouldn't be drafted as an NFFC starting QB because that's what we've been talking an awful lot about here - how Tebow measures up in that regard. So ignore Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Smith, Freeman, McCoy, etc.. Yes, there may be some unfortunate teams still starting them, but not by choice. So why are these guys not under a microscope? Uhh... cuz they SUCK and cuz no one is out here selling them as legit top-10 potential NFFC QBs.
That leaves the QBs between the top-5 and Tebow: Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez.
Tebow vs. other similar "NFFC starter-caliber" QBs since he became a starter (8 games)
Hmmm... do we really need to hold most of these guys to a higher standard, when they're already outscoring him AND all but one of them is a proven NFL and fantasy starting QB? I haven't gone back and drilled into each and every game these guys have played since they became starters, but I don't think that's necessary at all because they have multiyear proven track records and we don't need to look at their opponents over their entire careers to know that they haven't had every single game be against either a terrible run or pass defense or a terrible offense. Noooo, they've played multiple years and we can surely assume that the sampling size of games is big enough to have evened out in that area. Nor have they likely nearly-doubled their fantasy production in the final 3-5 minutes of every game (though I honestly won't be wasting the time to try to dig through those numbers either, as it's pretty ridiculous to even wonder).
The bottom line is that some of us feel that Tebow's current level of barely-startable NFFC QB production will not be sustained longterm (i.e. next year) due to the" peculiarity" with which he's obtained those numbers. We get it though that some of you think that, not only will he sustain them, he'll improve upon them! But do you truly not see the risk of how and when he gets his points and how he looks doing it as compared to the other similar starting QBs I listed? Really? You'd draft him next year over Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger? Cuz if you would, then you're saying he's a top-10. We disagree - adamantly (obviously ). [/QUOTE]He will be a top 10 fantasy QB next year. His rushing yards and ability to rush for TD's is not to the level of Cam, but puts him at a level where he can have 2 TD's in any given game, even when he has a bad game. Here is what will be Tebows typical stat line next year: 10-19 150 Yds 1-TD - 60 RuYds 1-TD - Like it or not, that's 25 points and that is a top 10 QB. As far as fantasy, he is a top 10 QB. As far as reality, he is a top 10 QB just by the fact he is 7-1 as a starter and has led his team to victories in improbable ways, and has brought his team from the bottom, to leading the division at 8-5, and has proven he is worthy to be in the NFL as a starting QB. I don't think anyone is saying he is an elite QB. The "Stop the madness" movement is deteriorating fast. You might want to jump on the Merrill Hoge and Stephen A Smith, humble express, before its too late. [/QUOTE]There is no way you can say he's a top 10 QB for the simple fact that he's 7-1. You can poll every GM, coach, and scout in the league and I guarantee that he's not in the consensus top 10.
He looks likely to be leading his team to a division title in a division that his team may be the only one with a winning record. I can also guarantee that a team like the Steelers or Ravens would welcome that a playoff match up with the Broncos with open arms.
I think they lose to the Patriots this week. If that is true, the Broncos would have beaten only one team this year that is headed to the play-offs. That team is the Jets and they are not locked by any means.
So, you have to ask yourself, if Tebow is a top 10 QB next year and plays a schedule as brutal as the Chiefs were faced with this year, will these miraculous 4th quarter comebacks continue? The Bronco defense may not be able to keep their team in the game while Tebow puts up three quarters of ineffective football. Wouldn't you feel much more comfortable with a player like E. Manning, Big Ben, or Romo?
Go Big Red!
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
quote:Originally posted by Al R G:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Pat, I'm not talking about Rodgers specifically. He's obviously well beyond Tebow both in the NFL and fantasy. I'm talking about Tebow being held to a standard that no other QB appears to be in terms of matchups. Gee, maybe it's because other QBs don't have 36-page message board homages in which every week it's touted "He did it AGAIN! Oh boy!". When "it" is simply the "miraculous" feat of averaging 22 PPG. :rolleyes:
Wanna talk about the other QBs? Ok, let's.
Let's first omit the obvious top-5: Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Newton, Stafford are all every-week matchup-proof fantasy starters. No need to hold them to any high standard; they SET the standard!
Let's also omit anyone who wasn't or still wouldn't be drafted as an NFFC starting QB because that's what we've been talking an awful lot about here - how Tebow measures up in that regard. So ignore Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Smith, Freeman, McCoy, etc.. Yes, there may be some unfortunate teams still starting them, but not by choice. So why are these guys not under a microscope? Uhh... cuz they SUCK and cuz no one is out here selling them as legit top-10 potential NFFC QBs.
That leaves the QBs between the top-5 and Tebow: Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez.
Tebow vs. other similar "NFFC starter-caliber" QBs since he became a starter (8 games)
Hmmm... do we really need to hold most of these guys to a higher standard, when they're already outscoring him AND all but one of them is a proven NFL and fantasy starting QB? I haven't gone back and drilled into each and every game these guys have played since they became starters, but I don't think that's necessary at all because they have multiyear proven track records and we don't need to look at their opponents over their entire careers to know that they haven't had every single game be against either a terrible run or pass defense or a terrible offense. Noooo, they've played multiple years and we can surely assume that the sampling size of games is big enough to have evened out in that area. Nor have they likely nearly-doubled their fantasy production in the final 3-5 minutes of every game (though I honestly won't be wasting the time to try to dig through those numbers either, as it's pretty ridiculous to even wonder).
The bottom line is that some of us feel that Tebow's current level of barely-startable NFFC QB production will not be sustained longterm (i.e. next year) due to the" peculiarity" with which he's obtained those numbers. We get it though that some of you think that, not only will he sustain them, he'll improve upon them! But do you truly not see the risk of how and when he gets his points and how he looks doing it as compared to the other similar starting QBs I listed? Really? You'd draft him next year over Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger? Cuz if you would, then you're saying he's a top-10. We disagree - adamantly (obviously ). [/QUOTE]He will be a top 10 fantasy QB next year. His rushing yards and ability to rush for TD's is not to the level of Cam, but puts him at a level where he can have 2 TD's in any given game, even when he has a bad game. Here is what will be Tebows typical stat line next year: 10-19 150 Yds 1-TD - 60 RuYds 1-TD - Like it or not, that's 25 points and that is a top 10 QB. As far as fantasy, he is a top 10 QB. As far as reality, he is a top 10 QB just by the fact he is 7-1 as a starter and has led his team to victories in improbable ways, and has brought his team from the bottom, to leading the division at 8-5, and has proven he is worthy to be in the NFL as a starting QB. I don't think anyone is saying he is an elite QB. The "Stop the madness" movement is deteriorating fast. You might want to jump on the Merrill Hoge and Stephen A Smith, humble express, before its too late. [/QUOTE]There is no way you can say he's a top 10 QB for the simple fact that he's 7-1. You can poll every GM, coach, and scout in the league and I guarantee that he's not in the consensus top 10.
He looks likely to be leading his team to a division title in a division that his team may be the only one with a winning record. I can also guarantee that a team like the Steelers or Ravens would welcome that a playoff match up with the Broncos with open arms.
I think they lose to the Patriots this week. If that is true, the Broncos would have beaten only one team this year that is headed to the play-offs. That team is the Jets and they are not locked by any means.
So, you have to ask yourself, if Tebow is a top 10 QB next year and plays a schedule as brutal as the Chiefs were faced with this year, will these miraculous 4th quarter comebacks continue? The Bronco defense may not be able to keep their team in the game while Tebow puts up three quarters of ineffective football. Wouldn't you feel much more comfortable with a player like E. Manning, Big Ben, or Romo? [/QUOTE]Manning and Big Ben are deserving. They have won super bowls and are top notch, clutch QB's when it matters the most. Romo?? Not so much
quote:Originally posted by Al R G:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Pat, I'm not talking about Rodgers specifically. He's obviously well beyond Tebow both in the NFL and fantasy. I'm talking about Tebow being held to a standard that no other QB appears to be in terms of matchups. Gee, maybe it's because other QBs don't have 36-page message board homages in which every week it's touted "He did it AGAIN! Oh boy!". When "it" is simply the "miraculous" feat of averaging 22 PPG. :rolleyes:
Wanna talk about the other QBs? Ok, let's.
Let's first omit the obvious top-5: Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Newton, Stafford are all every-week matchup-proof fantasy starters. No need to hold them to any high standard; they SET the standard!
Let's also omit anyone who wasn't or still wouldn't be drafted as an NFFC starting QB because that's what we've been talking an awful lot about here - how Tebow measures up in that regard. So ignore Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Smith, Freeman, McCoy, etc.. Yes, there may be some unfortunate teams still starting them, but not by choice. So why are these guys not under a microscope? Uhh... cuz they SUCK and cuz no one is out here selling them as legit top-10 potential NFFC QBs.
That leaves the QBs between the top-5 and Tebow: Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez.
Tebow vs. other similar "NFFC starter-caliber" QBs since he became a starter (8 games)
Hmmm... do we really need to hold most of these guys to a higher standard, when they're already outscoring him AND all but one of them is a proven NFL and fantasy starting QB? I haven't gone back and drilled into each and every game these guys have played since they became starters, but I don't think that's necessary at all because they have multiyear proven track records and we don't need to look at their opponents over their entire careers to know that they haven't had every single game be against either a terrible run or pass defense or a terrible offense. Noooo, they've played multiple years and we can surely assume that the sampling size of games is big enough to have evened out in that area. Nor have they likely nearly-doubled their fantasy production in the final 3-5 minutes of every game (though I honestly won't be wasting the time to try to dig through those numbers either, as it's pretty ridiculous to even wonder).
The bottom line is that some of us feel that Tebow's current level of barely-startable NFFC QB production will not be sustained longterm (i.e. next year) due to the" peculiarity" with which he's obtained those numbers. We get it though that some of you think that, not only will he sustain them, he'll improve upon them! But do you truly not see the risk of how and when he gets his points and how he looks doing it as compared to the other similar starting QBs I listed? Really? You'd draft him next year over Ryan, Romo, EManning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger? Cuz if you would, then you're saying he's a top-10. We disagree - adamantly (obviously ). [/QUOTE]He will be a top 10 fantasy QB next year. His rushing yards and ability to rush for TD's is not to the level of Cam, but puts him at a level where he can have 2 TD's in any given game, even when he has a bad game. Here is what will be Tebows typical stat line next year: 10-19 150 Yds 1-TD - 60 RuYds 1-TD - Like it or not, that's 25 points and that is a top 10 QB. As far as fantasy, he is a top 10 QB. As far as reality, he is a top 10 QB just by the fact he is 7-1 as a starter and has led his team to victories in improbable ways, and has brought his team from the bottom, to leading the division at 8-5, and has proven he is worthy to be in the NFL as a starting QB. I don't think anyone is saying he is an elite QB. The "Stop the madness" movement is deteriorating fast. You might want to jump on the Merrill Hoge and Stephen A Smith, humble express, before its too late. [/QUOTE]There is no way you can say he's a top 10 QB for the simple fact that he's 7-1. You can poll every GM, coach, and scout in the league and I guarantee that he's not in the consensus top 10.
He looks likely to be leading his team to a division title in a division that his team may be the only one with a winning record. I can also guarantee that a team like the Steelers or Ravens would welcome that a playoff match up with the Broncos with open arms.
I think they lose to the Patriots this week. If that is true, the Broncos would have beaten only one team this year that is headed to the play-offs. That team is the Jets and they are not locked by any means.
So, you have to ask yourself, if Tebow is a top 10 QB next year and plays a schedule as brutal as the Chiefs were faced with this year, will these miraculous 4th quarter comebacks continue? The Bronco defense may not be able to keep their team in the game while Tebow puts up three quarters of ineffective football. Wouldn't you feel much more comfortable with a player like E. Manning, Big Ben, or Romo? [/QUOTE]Manning and Big Ben are deserving. They have won super bowls and are top notch, clutch QB's when it matters the most. Romo?? Not so much
-
Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30136
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by FF Addict:
Tom, would you start Tebow over Stafford this week? I don't think I can bring myself to do it. That's a real tough one. I'd probably go Stafford but I could see Tebow being the better play. But in Week 15 with so much at stake I'd probably play it safe and go with Stafford.
Tom, would you start Tebow over Stafford this week? I don't think I can bring myself to do it. That's a real tough one. I'd probably go Stafford but I could see Tebow being the better play. But in Week 15 with so much at stake I'd probably play it safe and go with Stafford.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
-
Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30136
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by renman:
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years.
[ December 14, 2011, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years.
[ December 14, 2011, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by renman:
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years. [/QUOTE]Actually I noticed the same thing about Josh Freeman, Mike Williams Bucs last year...they were putting up stats and winning because they had such an easy schedule vs the weakest defenses...I never bought into their hype and knew Lions getting pts against them in opener was a gimme...what happen to them this year?? Vince Young "just won"...I believe his record was around 30-17 as nfl starter, yet nobody hyped him up because there were similar red flags. So no, it isn't just tebow being singled out and his simply winning isn't enough at this point either, considering it his defense doing the winning for 50 + minutes of game and tebow only putting in a few minutes of great qb play while being terrible the rest of game...those are factors that can't be ignored when evaluating a franchise qb and his potential to win a SB.
quote:Originally posted by renman:
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years. [/QUOTE]Actually I noticed the same thing about Josh Freeman, Mike Williams Bucs last year...they were putting up stats and winning because they had such an easy schedule vs the weakest defenses...I never bought into their hype and knew Lions getting pts against them in opener was a gimme...what happen to them this year?? Vince Young "just won"...I believe his record was around 30-17 as nfl starter, yet nobody hyped him up because there were similar red flags. So no, it isn't just tebow being singled out and his simply winning isn't enough at this point either, considering it his defense doing the winning for 50 + minutes of game and tebow only putting in a few minutes of great qb play while being terrible the rest of game...those are factors that can't be ignored when evaluating a franchise qb and his potential to win a SB.
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Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30136
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by TR:
So no, it isn't just tebow being singled out and his simply winning isn't enough at this point either, considering it his defense doing the winning for 50 + minutes of game and tebow only putting in a few minutes of great qb play while being terrible the rest of game...those are factors that can't be ignored when evaluating a franchise qb and his potential to win a SB. I agree there's uncertainty about Tebow looking ahead to next season. However, I do believe he is being singled out by his detractors. You mention staying away from Freeman this season. That's fine and it was a good call if you avoided him this season. But that doesn't change the fact he was productive last season and the Bucs were winning with him.
What Tebow is doing this season and what he may become long-term are two separate discussions. I'm not convinced he'll be a big-time NFL starter either long-term unless he continues to make improvements as a passer. However, that doesn't change the fact he's a reliable and consistent QB1 this season (he was last season too as a starter) and the Broncos are winning this season with him as the starter. Again, I think there's far too much attention focused on his alleged luck and not enough on his bottom-line production.
If you want to focus on his SOS, that's fine as well. Again, saying he must prove himself against a team that has both a good offense and good defense ignores the fact that virtually no QB (other than ones in the AFC North) are facing those teams this season since there are so few of them. So if you're saying that's the next hurdle Tebow has to clear then you're holding him to a standard you're not asking other QBs to adhere to. I think that's a flawed argument.
He has faced good defenses and produced and won. The two times he faced the only team with a Top 10 defense and offense, he produced both times, won one of the games and nearly won the other. This week, he'll face a great offense and we'll see how he does.
So no, it isn't just tebow being singled out and his simply winning isn't enough at this point either, considering it his defense doing the winning for 50 + minutes of game and tebow only putting in a few minutes of great qb play while being terrible the rest of game...those are factors that can't be ignored when evaluating a franchise qb and his potential to win a SB. I agree there's uncertainty about Tebow looking ahead to next season. However, I do believe he is being singled out by his detractors. You mention staying away from Freeman this season. That's fine and it was a good call if you avoided him this season. But that doesn't change the fact he was productive last season and the Bucs were winning with him.
What Tebow is doing this season and what he may become long-term are two separate discussions. I'm not convinced he'll be a big-time NFL starter either long-term unless he continues to make improvements as a passer. However, that doesn't change the fact he's a reliable and consistent QB1 this season (he was last season too as a starter) and the Broncos are winning this season with him as the starter. Again, I think there's far too much attention focused on his alleged luck and not enough on his bottom-line production.
If you want to focus on his SOS, that's fine as well. Again, saying he must prove himself against a team that has both a good offense and good defense ignores the fact that virtually no QB (other than ones in the AFC North) are facing those teams this season since there are so few of them. So if you're saying that's the next hurdle Tebow has to clear then you're holding him to a standard you're not asking other QBs to adhere to. I think that's a flawed argument.
He has faced good defenses and produced and won. The two times he faced the only team with a Top 10 defense and offense, he produced both times, won one of the games and nearly won the other. This week, he'll face a great offense and we'll see how he does.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
... Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces. Simple question: you're at your draft next year and in some early-mid round you're ready to pick your QB1. There are two QBs you've narrowed it down to and you project them for the same number of points for the season. In 2011, one of them had a high floor and low ceiling, the other a lower floor but higher ceiling. Also one of them scored half his points in the last 5 minutes of almost every game and faced a host of down-trodden teams who still buried him for 55+ minutes before going into over-conservative prevent mode; the other scored throughout his games.
Which one would you draft? (and by "you", I don't mean just Tom; anyone)
[ December 15, 2011, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
... Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces. Simple question: you're at your draft next year and in some early-mid round you're ready to pick your QB1. There are two QBs you've narrowed it down to and you project them for the same number of points for the season. In 2011, one of them had a high floor and low ceiling, the other a lower floor but higher ceiling. Also one of them scored half his points in the last 5 minutes of almost every game and faced a host of down-trodden teams who still buried him for 55+ minutes before going into over-conservative prevent mode; the other scored throughout his games.
Which one would you draft? (and by "you", I don't mean just Tom; anyone)
[ December 15, 2011, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by renman:
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years. [/QUOTE]Tom,
I get your point. The truth is people are going to nitpick Tebow because Tebow gets tons of publicity. What these people forget is that Tebow is not a self promoter. He is not begging for attention or publicity like some athletes in the past have. Some fans and media resent those who get the spotlight shined on them and begin the nitpicking.
I am not sure you ever addressed my bigger more important point (if you did and I missed it I apologize).
The truth is this discussion is all analysis and scrutiny of Tebow. Whether it be his abilities as a real NFL QB or his abilities and production in fantasy. When people scrutinize him they are comparing him to other QB's (obviously).
Here is my point.
Just about all the other QB's that he is being compared to are QB's who have been in a system as the starter for a year or for many years. They all have had an entire season (albeit abbreviated pre season) to work in a cohesive offense. It isn't fair to compare him NOW to current experienced greats of the game like Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, Rivers, Peyton, etc... It isn't even fair to compare him to rookies like Cam or Dalton who have been in an offense built for them all year.
At best he can be compared to guys like Gabbert , Ponder, Locker who were thrown into the fire.
The point I am making is this. What would Tim Tebow's production be if his team committed to him (like all other QB's he is being compared to enjoy) with an offense created for him and personnel around him to fit that offense?
That is my point and it is a point I see no one addressing in this debate.
[ December 15, 2011, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: renman ]
quote:Originally posted by renman:
Tom,
I made a post to you earlier on this page about how Tebow's personal stats/productivity is currently held back by his playing circumstance. I see people debating you trying to compare Tebow to other current QB's and those other QB's have completely different circumstances to play under.
Thoughts? My thoughts are Tebow has some disadvantages compared to other QBs and some advantages. He has a great running game and a stout defense. On the negative side, he's lacking in great talent in the passing game to work with. What baffles me is the obsession on his SOS when it's rarely brought up with other QBs - especially when Tebow is doing things nearly every other QB in the league will not be asked to do this season (i.e. face a team with a Top 15 offense and defense).
Here's the thing I don't get - if Cam Newton or Andy Dalton do well, nobody is calling them "lucky." They're simply being praised for being productive. But Tebow isn't given the same type of praise by some. Instead, he's simply being lucky and some people refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he may be good too simply because he's not doing it in "prototypical" QB fashion. That baffles me, especially as it pertains to fantasy. Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces.
And from an NFL perspective, we've reached the point where it's time to stop asking Tebow to win conventionally. As long as he's simply winning, that should be enough. Especially for a team like the Broncos that hasn't been in the playoffs for the past six years. [/QUOTE]Tom,
I get your point. The truth is people are going to nitpick Tebow because Tebow gets tons of publicity. What these people forget is that Tebow is not a self promoter. He is not begging for attention or publicity like some athletes in the past have. Some fans and media resent those who get the spotlight shined on them and begin the nitpicking.
I am not sure you ever addressed my bigger more important point (if you did and I missed it I apologize).
The truth is this discussion is all analysis and scrutiny of Tebow. Whether it be his abilities as a real NFL QB or his abilities and production in fantasy. When people scrutinize him they are comparing him to other QB's (obviously).
Here is my point.
Just about all the other QB's that he is being compared to are QB's who have been in a system as the starter for a year or for many years. They all have had an entire season (albeit abbreviated pre season) to work in a cohesive offense. It isn't fair to compare him NOW to current experienced greats of the game like Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, Rivers, Peyton, etc... It isn't even fair to compare him to rookies like Cam or Dalton who have been in an offense built for them all year.
At best he can be compared to guys like Gabbert , Ponder, Locker who were thrown into the fire.
The point I am making is this. What would Tim Tebow's production be if his team committed to him (like all other QB's he is being compared to enjoy) with an offense created for him and personnel around him to fit that offense?
That is my point and it is a point I see no one addressing in this debate.
[ December 15, 2011, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: renman ]
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thegambler
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
i am a big tebow fan but any talk of taking him over the likes of eli or romo or roth or rivers in a draft is just crazy. the guy might be a winner but he is still a fringe qb1.
in no particular order:
1. rodgers
2. brees
3. brady
4. cam
5. healthy peyton
6. eli
7. romo
8. stafford
9. roth
10. rivers
11. ryan
12. vick
actually i don't have tebow as a qb1....dam
now if my choices are: tebow, sanchez, fitz, flacco and dalton....i am taking tebow. i would lvoe to have him as a backup qb but i guess not a #1
in no particular order:
1. rodgers
2. brees
3. brady
4. cam
5. healthy peyton
6. eli
7. romo
8. stafford
9. roth
10. rivers
11. ryan
12. vick
actually i don't have tebow as a qb1....dam
now if my choices are: tebow, sanchez, fitz, flacco and dalton....i am taking tebow. i would lvoe to have him as a backup qb but i guess not a #1