Tim Tebow - Let's Talk

[alanr824]

Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by renman:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by renman:
Tom,

I get your point. The truth is people are going to nitpick Tebow because Tebow gets tons of publicity. What these people forget is that Tebow is not a self promoter. He is not begging for attention or publicity like some athletes in the past have. Some fans and media resent those who get the spotlight shined on them and begin the nitpicking. Pure speculation! Now you're a mind reader? :rolleyes: It's crap like this that fuels the "Skeptics" (and I do like that better than "Haters" seeing most of us are on record that we have nothing personal against him).

If you think our skepticism is because he gets attention, then you're not really paying attention. Why does there have to be some ulterior motive? Most of you who know me know that I'm a numbers guy. This whole thing is just another math exercise to me.

So please stop making ridiculous assumptions. No one should think this is some crazy jealousy thing. Man, what are we, in junior high school where we all wish we're as popular as some total stranger? :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]Sandman,

Outline for me the NFL players who you have personally debated about as much as Tebow in the last month. Have you and the rest of the world aggressively scrutinized Gabbert, Ponder and Dalton?

Tebow is a lightening rod for debate and discussion because Tebow gets a TON of attention from the media and none of it is driven by his own self promotion. That is a fact.

What exactly in my quote is "pure speculation?" [/QUOTE]Really? You need me to point it out?

Ok... That we "forget ...that Tebow is not a self promoter". Who said that? HOW could we forget? He's on tv every single day!

And "Some fans and media resent those who get the spotlight shined on them and begin the nitpicking". On this, you may be right - for SOME. To me, I could care less about his media attention. The media shines the spotlight on him because it generates NFL interest; they don't speak nearly as much of him as a fantasy QB. THAT'S all I care about. For me, this whole debate is about whether or not he's a legit NFFC QB1.

In the end, you either agree or disagree with the arguments made. What the heck does anyone's motives (real or fictitious) have to do with it? Some of us have provided data and stats and comparisons. We've outlined our concerns over how and when he does the bulk of his scoring. On all these points, you can either agree or disagree. Yeah, some of us may not shy away from a good debate, but motive is completely irrelevant to the points themselves. Do you see us surmising WHY Tebow's loyal followers seemingly can't wait to come out here and tell us "I told you so" every week? No. Who cares?

Try to stay focused on the data and points presented and leave the psychiatry to the pros please? [/QUOTE]Its kind of funny how you somehow have to justify your position with coming up with answers and reasons and arguments to diminish Tebow, like listing "dropped passes" leaders in the NFL to justify that Tim Tebow hasn't had a lot of dropped passes. You are a self proclaimed "numbers guy" and could care less about everything else. So you, being the numbers guy. bringing up number of dropped passes by receivers, without even mentioning the fact that Tebow, by a wide margin, throws less passes than any QB in the NFL. You being the numbers guy and only cares about stats are the prominent one on this thread EVERY WEEK, responding more than anyone. Why do you care so much, having to research and look up stats, and probably take up hours of your time every week, just to diminish Tebow? Why bother? You have your argument that he's not a QB1. WE GET IT !!! That's your opinion and the future will tell if you are correct or not. But, its ironic that you complain about all of the attention he gets, yet if you add up all of the posts on this thread, I wonder who has the most? I am not going to count, but you are in the top 2. I wonder if there is a website who keeps track of the most Tebow posts. If there is, I am sure you will find it.

[ December 15, 2011, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]

[Sandman62]

Others have brought up the dropped passes, numerous times. I wanted to see how true it was. I provided data.

As for "somehow have to justify my position"... that's hilarious! Yeah, much better to just toss around unsubstantiated opinions all the time?!

As for why I post so much in this thread, maybe CoMoHusker said it best:
After a win, it's about how great Tebow is and everyone seems to be blinded by the stinker of a game he played for three quarters, yet he's the reason that they win in the end.

Why do you care why I post? If you don't like it, feel free to use the PageDown button?! :rolleyes:

BTW, I noticed you didn't bother answering this question either:

Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
... Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces. Simple question: you're at your draft next year and in some early-mid round you're ready to pick your QB1. There are two QBs you've narrowed it down to and you project them for the same number of points for the season. In 2011, one of them had a high floor and low ceiling, the other a lower floor but higher ceiling. Also one of them scored half his points in the last 5 minutes of almost every game and faced a host of down-trodden teams who still buried him for 55+ minutes before going into over-conservative prevent mode; the other scored throughout his games.

Which one would you draft? (and by "you", I don't mean just Tom; anyone) [/QUOTE]Hmmm... I thought this was a simple question. I'm not sure, given the above, how anyone would even have two such players projected the same, but assume someone does. You're gonna draft the guy who makes you wonder every game if he'll pull off another late-game miracle to salvage his fantasy day? Really??? [/quote]

[ December 16, 2011, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

[Rog]

How good did blaine Gabbert look on the last drive ?I think he had 50 yards thru 3 1/2 quarters and then walked his team down the field for a nice score.Now if their defense could of kept it close for him.
All joking aside that is the first time I sat and watched Gabbert for a complete game and he looks timid .if his first read isnt there he struggled going thru his progressions.His arm looks strong enough but is his will?

[ December 16, 2011, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Who? ]

[renman]

Sandman,

Let me share some facts with you.

-Tebow is NOT a self promoter. Many people forget that while resenting the amount of media coverage he gets. I too have been sick of Tebowmania. This isn't speculation , this is a logical accurate point. Tons of people have been attacked due to resentment over the attention they get in all walks of life.

-He is on TV every day because the MEDIA CREATES THE HYPE. Again, he isn't asking for the promotion and he is too respectful and professional to rudely blow everyone off.

-There is no "may be right" that some fans resent people who get the spotlight. I am right and you know I am right as you begrudgingly agree.

-Who called out YOUR personal motives on anything? Certainly not me? I made a general comment (that is accurate) about how Tebow is obsessed over and why. I didn't say "Sandman obsessed over Tebow because Sandman dislikes how much attention he gets..."

So when you said I was "speculating" you could not be more wrong. As it relates to his fantasy production and future in this league. I have been on record questioning what he is capable of.

My primary point is that people are trying to scrutinize him and his production NOW by comparing it to other QB's who are in totally different situations.

Put Tebow in a system designed for him that he and his offense have had time to get comfortable with and his production will certainly go up, significantly. Whether or not an NFL team is prepared to make that kind of commitment that can set the organization back 5 years if things go wrong is a different question

[ December 16, 2011, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: renman ]

[Tom Kessenich]

I'd trust Tebow playing right-handed more than I'd trust Gabbert. He's by far the worst starting QB in the league and one of the worst high-round rookies I've seen come into the NFL at the position in several years. He's going to need to make a significant improvement just to become below-average next season.

The Jags are in a tough spot. They used a first-round pick on Gabbert this season but if there's a QB on the board worthy of a first-round pick in April they have to take him. It would be amazingly stupid to go into next season thinking Gabbert is clearly the guy.

[Sandman62]

Renman, you stated that people nitpick Tebow because he gets so much publicity and that we forget that he deflects the attention. That second part IS speculation. You have no idea what we think or remember or forget. Why go there? Aren''t there enough issues to debate already?

Yes, many people probably do dislike the publicity. That doesn't mean we forget or care that he deflects the attention. But the never-ending praise, some deserved, much not, simply fuels some (at least me).

[CoMoHusker]

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I'd trust Tebow playing right-handed more than I'd trust Gabbert. He's by far the worst starting QB in the league and one of the worst high-round rookies I've seen come into the NFL at the position in several years. He's going to need to make a significant improvement just to become below-average next season.

The Jags are in a tough spot. They used a first-round pick on Gabbert this season but if there's a QB on the board worthy of a first-round pick in April they have to take him. It would be amazingly stupid to go into next season thinking Gabbert is clearly the guy. Tom, there is no question that Gabbert has struggled. And being a Husker fan, you can imagine that I have no justification in defending the guy but he was not set up to succeed from the get go.

When he was drafted, I don't think they had any intention of him seeing the field this year. The team then makes that ridiculous decision to cut Garrard the week before the season starts, leaving the fate of the year in the hands of McCown. As no surprise, that didn't go well and they turned to the rookie.

MJD is a stud but other than that, the Jags have the least potent offensive attack in the league. The Jag WR's are even less appealing to me than what Tebow is throwing to and last night's group that was on the field were a joke. Marcedes Lewis finally realized that he's Marcedes Lewis. It was pretty evident to me that he wasn't going to have the same success as last year.

I know the Panthers had to take Cam Newton even though they barely gave Clauson a shot and you are probably right that the Jags have to do something similar if there is a QB they like on the board. Tough spot to be in that's for sure.

[ December 16, 2011, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: CoMoHusker ]

[CoMoHusker]

Originally posted by renman:
Sandman,

Let me share some facts with you.

-Tebow is NOT a self promoter. Many people forget that while resenting the amount of media coverage he gets. I too have been sick of Tebowmania. This isn't speculation , this is a logical accurate point. Tons of people have been attacked due to resentment over the attention they get in all walks of life.

-He is on TV every day because the MEDIA CREATES THE HYPE. Again, he isn't asking for the promotion and he is too respectful and professional to rudely blow everyone off.

-There is no "may be right" that some fans resent people who get the spotlight. I am right and you know I am right as you begrudgingly agree.

-Who called out YOUR personal motives on anything? Certainly not me? I made a general comment (that is accurate) about how Tebow is obsessed over and why. I didn't say "Sandman obsessed over Tebow because Sandman dislikes how much attention he gets..."

So when you said I was "speculating" you could not be more wrong. As it relates to his fantasy production and future in this league. I have been on record questioning what he is capable of.

My primary point is that people are trying to scrutinize him and his production NOW by comparing it to other QB's who are in totally different situations.

Put Tebow in a system designed for him that he and his offense have had time to get comfortable with and his production will certainly go up, significantly. Whether or not an NFL team is prepared to make that kind of commitment that can set the organization back 5 years if things go wrong is a different question The only media attention or attention in general that I take offense to is the kind that is awarding Tebow with being the reason for all of the team's recent success. There are too many instances, stats, and more easily the eye test that can easily refute that for me. I don't think it would be fair to say that I or other skeptics on these boards resent Tebow in anyway.

Tebow definitely says the right things and I believe he is clearly genuine when he talks about how the team is first and he deflects that success (rightfully so) to the team. But don't think he's not taking advantage of the media hype. I don't recall him doing that many commercials while he was the 3rd string QB. I don't blame the guy, I would be doing the same thing. Especially since the average career in the NFL lasts less than four years.

My points as skeptic have always been about his play on the field and what I see each and every week. Nothing more and nothing less.

[alanr824]

Originally posted by Sandman62:
Others have brought up the dropped passes, numerous times. I wanted to see how true it was. I provided data.

As for "somehow have to justify my position"... that's hilarious! Yeah, much better to just toss around unsubstantiated opinions all the time?!

As for why I post so much in this thread, maybe CoMoHusker said it best:
After a win, it's about how great Tebow is and everyone seems to be blinded by the stinker of a game he played for three quarters, yet he's the reason that they win in the end.

Why do you care why I post? If you don't like it, feel free to use the PageDown button?! :rolleyes:

BTW, I noticed you didn't bother answering this question either:

quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
... Again, there isn't a single fantasy owner who should care how his player produces as long as he produces. Simple question: you're at your draft next year and in some early-mid round you're ready to pick your QB1. There are two QBs you've narrowed it down to and you project them for the same number of points for the season. In 2011, one of them had a high floor and low ceiling, the other a lower floor but higher ceiling. Also one of them scored half his points in the last 5 minutes of almost every game and faced a host of down-trodden teams who still buried him for 55+ minutes before going into over-conservative prevent mode; the other scored throughout his games.

Which one would you draft? (and by "you", I don't mean just Tom; anyone) [/QUOTE]Hmmm... I thought this was a simple question. I'm not sure, given the above, how anyone would even have two such players projected the same, but assume someone does. You're gonna draft the guy who makes you wonder every game if he'll pull off another late-game miracle to salvage his fantasy day? Really??? [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Simply by the fact that he is winning games and leading his team to victory every week, maybe not this year, but absolutely next year, they will build their team and their offense around Tebow's strengths, bring in some WRs that are halfway decent, and come up with a gameplan that "unleashes" his strengths the entire game, not just the last 5 minutes. With that he will be a low end QB1 for those of us that only care about stats, and he will continue to be a winner in the NFL. Going to the draft next year, and I see that Denver has surrounded him with talent, and plans to unleash his strengths through the entire game, I would have no problem drafting him as a low end QB1. If you think he is just going to drop off, not win any more games, and be a backup next year, you are in denial. The comebacks are a part of his thing.. "Tebow Time".. But in reality, its the offensive play calling during the first 3 quarters that has held him back, not necessarily his ability as a QB. Sure he looks horrible at times, but put him in the shotgun on every play, run the option more often during the game, give him some talented WRs to throw to, and you will find he has a lot more talent than you give him credit for. And with that talent, comes the stats you state he cannot consistantly put up. This will be my last post on the subject for now, since you really don't get it and I don't have the time or energy to go back and forth with you. I will chime in again next year, on page 144. I am sure you will still be here.

[ December 16, 2011, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Al R G ]

[renman]

Originally posted by Sandman62:
Renman, you stated that people nitpick Tebow because he gets so much publicity and that we forget that he deflects the attention. That second part IS speculation. You have no idea what we think or remember or forget. Why go there? Aren''t there enough issues to debate already?

Yes, many people probably do dislike the publicity. That doesn't mean we forget or care that he deflects the attention. But the never-ending praise, some deserved, much not, simply fuels some (at least me). Sandman,

I never typed the word "deflects" on this forum in this discussion so I am not sure where you got that from. What I did say is that Tebow is not a "self promoter" which I think everyone agrees with.

Many people resent him for the attention shined on him WHILE FORGETTING he isn't asking for it. No one is calling you personally out for this but anyone reasonable recognizes many people resent him for the attention and ignore he isn't asking for it.

Your final statement flat out supports my exact point. Some of the scrutiny comes from the amount of attention he is getting. You just said the same thing I am saying lol.