And then we have fantasy football

[Greg Ambrosius]

Although, Greg did say, "In fantasy football, the goal is to top your league mates after 13 weeks and then hope and pray that your players get hot for 3 weeks.

I don't recall what year, maybe 2010 (for which the final standings aren't available online), but... I seem to recall a recent Classic season where the bottom playoff seed in scoring went on to win the 3-week playoff round. I thought that team had made the playoffs via H2H record too.

Greg/Tom, do you still have that data accessible? Just curious.

Steve Luzzi won the $100,000 grand prize in the Classic 2009 as he was seeded 65th out of 65 teams heading into the Championship Round and got hot at the right time. He definitely had the best team of any NFFC team over Weeks 14, 15 and 16, no different than what the Packers did in 2010 or the Giants did last year.

Here's the story if you need to know about Steve's great finish:

Steve Luzzi's rise to the $100,000 grand prize is truly a Cinderella story and one that gives hope to all of you playing in the NFFC. His 1 800 GO DEEP team started the season 2-4 in Las Vegas League 1 of the NFFC Classic before getting on a roll and winning seven straight games. The head-to-head title got Steve's team into the Championship Round as it finished first with a 9-4 record, but only seventh in his league in points with 1,612.5.

In fact, Luzzi's team ranked 151st overall in total points and entered the Championship Round ranked 65th out of 65 teams. But it got hot at the right time, he made a few good decisions like starting Darren Sproles in Week 16 and his incredible run led to a league title and the $100,000 grand prize. Amazing and I know Steve is still in shock over it all!!

Here's a look at Steve's draft from the No. 1 spot in Las Vegas League 1:

1. Adrian Peterson
2. Reggie Bush
3. DeSean Jackson (3RR)
4. Philip Rivers
5. Derrick Mason
6. Willie Parker
7. Darren Sproles
8. Ted Ginn Jr.
9. Bo Scaife
10. Miles Austin
11. Le'Ron McClain
12. Tennessee
13. Limas Sweed
14. Chad Pennington
15. Anthony Fasano
16. Demetrius Williams
17. Adam Vinatieri
18. Ryan Longwell
19. Billy Volek

His key free agent pickups were Mike Wallace, Fred Davis, Malcolm Floyd and Rob Bironas.

Congrats Steve. Pretty amazing.

[Greg Ambrosius]

As has been said before... There is more luck involved in fantasy football than baseball. Skill is STILL more important in fantasy football than is luck. Luck does impact results in fantasy baseball. They are different animals. Every year frustration boils over for someone who wants to feel like they can control the results when they think on paper they have the best team before the season starts or on any given week in any given match up...

Then the games get played and some unpredictable stuff happens. That is what fuels a thread like this or a viewpoint that fantasy football is all about luck. The football season comes on the heels of a long, grinding fantasy baseball season... then you blink your eyes and you are in week 4 of your fantasy football season and some people get frustrated.

This about summarizes things up.

This thread has been on the NFFC boards every year since 2004. I've never understood why some people want to figure out what percentage of skill vs. luck there is in this game because it's just guessing either way. It's a skill-based game and thankfully it is because that's what makes it legal. Mark is wrong when he compares it to pulling the handle on a slot machine because to get into the Championship Round you had to have done something right first and you still have to make the right calls with your starting lineup in Weeks 14, 15 and 16 to win it all. Getting to the Championship Round is one thing and WINNING the title is another thing. Skill is the major reason for both if you get there.

Again, this is no different than the NFL these days. In the NFL, you have to stay healthy during the regular season and then get hot in the playoffs. The Packers and Giants have proven that during the last two seasons and it's been that way for several years. The Giants were mediocre last year until they went on a playoff run and won the Super Bowl. The Packers were 8-6 before they went on a roll in 2010. The Steelers were the 6th seed with Jerome Bettis and won the Super Bowl; the Patriots were 18-0 and lost the Super Bowl to the Giants. I mean, the real game isn't much different than fantasy football. Do we call the NFL playoffs a slot machine?

Mark can call it what he wants, but the bottom line is that you need a lot of skill to win this game and you need a lot of luck. Who doesn't in any form of football? Who cares what the percentage of skill vs. luck is, you need both to win in the NFFC, to win in the NFL and to win in pee-wee football. I wish I had both in every league I was entered in...and so does every other frustrated owner on this thread.

[BillyWaz]

As has been said before... There is more luck involved in fantasy football than baseball. Skill is STILL more important in fantasy football than is luck. Luck does impact results in fantasy baseball. They are different animals. Every year frustration boils over for someone who wants to feel like they can control the results when they think on paper they have the best team before the season starts or on any given week in any given match up...

Then the games get played and some unpredictable stuff happens. That is what fuels a thread like this or a viewpoint that fantasy football is all about luck. The football season comes on the heels of a long, grinding fantasy baseball season... then you blink your eyes and you are in week 4 of your fantasy football season and some people get frustrated.

This about summarizes things up.

This thread has been on the NFFC boards every year since 2004. I've never understood why some people want to figure out what percentage of skill vs. luck there is in this game because it's just guessing either way. It's a skill-based game and thankfully it is because that's what makes it legal. Mark is wrong when he compares it to pulling the handle on a slot machine because to get into the Championship Round you had to have done something right first and you still have to make the right calls with your starting lineup in Weeks 14, 15 and 16 to win it all. Getting to the Championship Round is one thing and WINNING the title is another thing. Skill is the major reason for both if you get there.

Again, this is no different than the NFL these days. In the NFL, you have to stay healthy during the regular season and then get hot in the playoffs. The Packers and Giants have proven that during the last two seasons and it's been that way for several years. The Giants were mediocre last year until they went on a playoff run and won the Super Bowl. The Packers were 8-6 before they went on a roll in 2010. The Steelers were the 6th seed with Jerome Bettis and won the Super Bowl; the Patriots were 18-0 and lost the Super Bowl to the Giants. I mean, the real game isn't much different than fantasy football. Do we call the NFL playoffs a slot machine?

Mark can call it what he wants, but the bottom line is that you need a lot of skill to win this game and you need a lot of luck. Who doesn't in any form of football? Who cares what the percentage of skill vs. luck is, you need both to win in the NFFC, to win in the NFL and to win in pee-wee football. I wish I had both in every league I was entered in...and so does every other frustrated owner on this thread.

I understand why a fantasy contest has to set it up this way. If you gave the regular season people a TRUE advantage for "kicking ass" the first 13 weeks of the season, many people wouldn't play. Steve Luzzi winning the grand prize is a fantasy contest owner (meaning Greg and Tom....not individual owners) DREAM COME TRUE!!! I know he was dead last when seeded for the championship round, but if I recall, he was somewhere in the neighborhood of 150th place+ in total points. That means there were approximately 85-90 teams who scored better than him that DID NOT get a chance at the $100,000. The object of this game is SCORE AS MANY POINTS AS POSSIBLE, but I realize we need H2H to play a part because that is what "people are comfortable with". This is not meant to take away anything from Steve. He got there, he dominated those 3 weeks, and everyone here would of traded spots with him that season.....congrats!

I think the NFFC does a better job than any other contest out there by rewarding REGULAR SEASON success in the most fair manner with a "3 week shootout" for the league prize $$$$ and not the VERY luck driven (IMO) H2H model.

That is why I am surprised about your statement about the "real" playoffs, Greg. What some people have never been able to comprehend is that THIS IS NOT REAL FOOTBALL!!! Why do people continue to compare it to the NFL games????

In fantasy football....

1) I CANNOT game plan for my opponent. Bill Belichick is one of the best at "taking away a team's top weapon". There is nothing like this in fantasy football.

2) If my RB, WR, etc. gets hurt 2:00 into the game, I cannot replace them with someone else and get their points.

3) Im sure a bunch of other things that are slipping my mind right now.

I agree 100% that there is a good amount of skill to GET into the championship round, but once you get there, the skill goes down CONSIDERABLY, IMO.

This year, I think I will publicly post my "dream team" each week to play in weeks 14-16. Meaning I can pick ANY valid lineup with any player in the NFL each week from weeks 14-16. I feel I have had pretty good success at fantasy football, but HIGHLY DOUBT I can pick a DIFFERENT team each week that outscores the eventual Classic and Primetime champ.

I may even take the highest projected scorers for each week from "fantasy expert" websites each week to see how they do as well.

[Don Draper]

we do carry our weekly scoring averages into the playoffs, although this has proven to be a miniscule advantage.

Paul - There in lies the rub. Instead of carrying only a 1 week advantage, i'd reward the folks who have done well for the first 13 weeks of the season with something more significant. Maybe 3X your weekly scoring average.

[Greg Ambrosius]

we do carry our weekly scoring averages into the playoffs, although this has proven to be a miniscule advantage.

Paul - There in lies the rub. Instead of carrying only a 1 week advantage, i'd reward the folks who have done well for the first 13 weeks of the season with something more significant. Maybe 3X your weekly scoring average.

If we did that Mark then there'd be a post saying that so-and-so won because he was in an easier league. He scored so many regular season points in an easy league that nobody could catch him in the Championship Round when the best teams all got together. I can hear that/your post now.

Building a better mouse trap is never easy and never free of even better solutions. The skill vs. luck factor will be a regular discussion on our boards forever, but we've tweaked our system as Billy said enough to make it as fair in the leagues as possible. And I do believe it's fair during the 3-week sprint in the Championship Round. The hottest teams -- and that included Mark's in Year 1 -- in Weeks 14-16 win the title and the most money.

[Don Draper]

we do carry our weekly scoring averages into the playoffs, although this has proven to be a miniscule advantage.

Paul - There in lies the rub. Instead of carrying only a 1 week advantage, i'd reward the folks who have done well for the first 13 weeks of the season with something more significant. Maybe 3X your weekly scoring average.

If we did that Mark then there'd be a post saying that so-and-so won because he was in an easier league. He scored so many regular season points in an easy league that nobody could catch him in the Championship Round when the best teams all got together. I can hear that/your post now.

Building a better mouse trap is never easy and never free of even better solutions. The skill vs. luck factor will be a regular discussion on our boards forever, but we've tweaked our system as Billy said enough to make it as fair in the leagues as possible. And I do believe it's fair during the 3-week sprint in the Championship Round. The hottest teams -- and that included Mark's in Year 1 -- in Weeks 14-16 win the title and the most money.

Greg - Not trying to bash here, but most of the posters so far view success in the Championship Round as a whole lot of luck. The Overall Top 10 results you posted earlier support that notion. Even your #1 ranked Classic player of all-time views the Championship Round as a slot machine. IF YOU ARE FINE WITH THAT, no problem. It is your contest.

[Don Draper]

we've tweaked our system as Billy said enough to make it as fair in the leagues as possible.

Yes, your league prizes/set-up are very fair. One of the best things about the NFFC!

[Greg Ambrosius]

Greg - Not trying to bash here, but most of the posters so far view success in the Championship Round as a whole lot of luck. The Overall Top 10 results you posted earlier support that notion. Even your #1 ranked Classic player of all-time views the Championship Round as a slot machine. IF YOU ARE FINE WITH THAT, no problem. It is your contest.

[/quote]Shame, shame on the word twisting Mark. Your use of the word "slot machine" has not been agreed to by many here and certainly not by me. You have ZERO CONTROL, NONE with a slot machine. Obviously you have many tough decisions before you get to the Championship Round in the NFFC and many more tough decisions to make during the Championship Round. You used the slot machine to gain attention to your posts. It's not applicable here.

Again, fight your good fight about fantasy football having a lot of luck involved and have fun with it. Nobody is arguing with you about that. Taint the Championship Round if that's your goal. But it's not the same as pulling down the handle and even you know that. And please don't say that I've said that.

Now go back to baseball scouting and let your one or two football teams roll on their own. You did right to stay out of fantasy football this year, but returning here to antagonize others who paid good money to play seems almost reptile-like and I thought you were against having message boards with one antagonizor.

[Don Draper]

Now go back to baseball scouting and let your one or two football teams roll on their own. You did right to stay out of fantasy football this year, but returning here to antagonize others who paid good money to play seems almost reptile-like and I thought you were against having message boards with one antagonizor.

I'm pretty sure I wrote the nffc a check for a couple grand this year, so i'm not sure how i "did right to stay out of fantasy football this year"?

[JETS SB]

Now go back to baseball scouting and let your one or two football teams roll on their own. You did right to stay out of fantasy football this year, but returning here to antagonize others who paid good money to play seems almost reptile-like and I thought you were against having message boards with one antagonizor.

I'm pretty sure I wrote the nffc a check for a couple grand this year, so i'm not sure how i "did right to stay out of fantasy football this year"?

One auction team under Mark's name and several others under an "anonymous" alias, as we all covet and dream to have the strategy of the great and mighty Gekko.

Bottom line is, Mark started this thread to cause some vibes and continues it, because he knows no other way but to cause an uproar. Since I am one of the only ones who has said anything against him, it appears he needs to continue, to get others involved..

Next thread, at the beginning of the NFBC season will be, "Look at me, I am going to be in the NFBC... here are MY plans"... who cares Mark, you are a has been, and you have diminished yourself to minimizing winning in these football contests, because you don't know how to anymore.