If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

BigBlueNation
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by BigBlueNation » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:56 am

IT8 wrote:Actually, what is SIMPLE is the fact that the format is expanding at an excellent pace. If that isn't sign enough that things aren't as dire as it is being painted here, I'm not sure what is.
Steve, as much as we disagree, you could be right... ;)
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Tom Kessenich
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:03 am

Don Draper wrote:It's simple. Inconsiderate drafters are clearly keeping owners from singing up for MORE leagues or even signing up at all. It's THAT simple. Stop raggn on vets. Without the vets making "fast" picks these drafts would take a month. Simple
Mark, the other side of the coin is threads like this push new players away or prevent other veterans from playing more because they also do not want to be singled out. Greg and I have both heard from people who feel this way. We've seen it occur both in the NFFC and NFBC where as you know this format is also one of our most popular contests.

Like Steve said, this format has grown at a huge rate in the last couple of years. The DC that's starting up today sold out in a little over 24 hours. So a lot of people clearly love the format. There are clear tech improvements Greg and I want to make that both of us feel are vital to further growing this format even more and it's our hope we will be able to implement them. Hopefully once these improvements are made, that will help everyone enjoy the format even more.

Until that time comes, I'm not sure what the solution is here. Greg and I are firmly against the idea of labeling people and we've both explained the reasons why. The one owner many of you seem to be so upset with has told us he's going to stop playing in this format for awhile so the DCs are wide open for all of you to sign up. In fact, we've had 6 straight DCs sell out in which this person has not signed up. The last one he signed up for began nearly two weeks ago. So like Greg said, the coast is now clear and all of you upset by him can dive in with abandon.

Greg and I are certainly open to discussion about how best to proceed here given what we have in place from a tech perspective currently and given our position on the suggestion of branding people. If you or anyone has an idea for how best to proceed let us know and let's have that discussion. You know both of us well enough by now to know we're always open to ways to improve our contests and given the popularity of the Draft Champions format in football and baseball, this one is certainly no exception.
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Fourslot40
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Fourslot40 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:39 am

I don't see options on the board for different slow drafts like we had in the NFBC. It seems that the most reasonable solution to make everyone happy is to promote the faster paced slow drafts with the eight hour drafts. Everyone knows it can happen with interest. Perhaps, start a thread for each time zone and for quicker paced drafts. After that, you get what you get. It's a great format.

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Tom Kessenich
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:47 am

Fourslot40 wrote:I don't see options on the board for different slow drafts like we had in the NFBC.
Greg made one available in this thread and nobody signed up for it. We've offered Time Zone DCs in the past and they never got off the ground. As Greg and I have said in this thread we're willing to offer whatever you guys want as long as it fits within our current tech specs. You want a 4-hour draft let's do it. You want 6, let's do it. We can offer those but nearly every time we do the interest isn't there.

But you tell me what time frame you want and I'll put it on the boards now and let's fill it up. Sound good? :)
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Fourslot40
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Fourslot40 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:52 am

Tom Kessenich wrote:
Fourslot40 wrote:I don't see options on the board for different slow drafts like we had in the NFBC.
Greg made one available in this thread and nobody signed up for it. We've offered Time Zone DCs in the past and they never got off the ground. As Greg and I have said in this thread we're willing to offer whatever you guys want as long as it fits within our current tech specs. You want a 4-hour draft let's do it. You want 6, let's do it. We can offer those but nearly every time we do the interest isn't there.

But you tell me what time frame you want and I'll put it on the boards now and let's fill it up. Sound good? :)
Just trying to offer ideas and I know you guys will offer anything with the right interest. This thread is so long, it seemed that there would be interest. I wasn't aware that previous offers had been unsuccessful.

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Tom Kessenich
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:56 am

Fourslot40 wrote:
Tom Kessenich wrote:
Fourslot40 wrote:I don't see options on the board for different slow drafts like we had in the NFBC.
Greg made one available in this thread and nobody signed up for it. We've offered Time Zone DCs in the past and they never got off the ground. As Greg and I have said in this thread we're willing to offer whatever you guys want as long as it fits within our current tech specs. You want a 4-hour draft let's do it. You want 6, let's do it. We can offer those but nearly every time we do the interest isn't there.

But you tell me what time frame you want and I'll put it on the boards now and let's fill it up. Sound good? :)
Just trying to offer ideas and I know you guys will offer anything with the right interest. This thread is so long, it seemed that there would be interest. I wasn't aware that previous offers had been unsuccessful.
You're right, this thread has gotten rather lengthy. :) But we're definitely open to offering different time formats for a DC league. Greg and I aren't going to say no to a sold out league anytime soon. :) So if there's interest in a 6-hour league or a 4-hour league let us know and we'll put it on the boards and try to sell it out.
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Don Draper
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Don Draper » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:50 am

Greg/Tom,
This is a great format, however I don't like being made to feel guilty that I'm driving away business because I don't want to be in a league with someone who continually takes a long time to draft.

Greg has said that the average draft gets done in 2 or 2.5 weeks. In order to have 420 picks made (35 rounds * 12 owners) in two weeks, a pick must be made every 48 minutes. When an owner consistently takes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 hours to pick, that is bad form in my opinion, esp given that the average pick being made is 48 minutes.

Again, the only way these drafts get done within 2-2.5 weeks is that the majority of your customers are making picks very quickly, in spite of your other customers.

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Tom Kessenich
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:15 am

Don Draper wrote:Greg/Tom,
This is a great format, however I don't like being made to feel guilty that I'm driving away business because I don't want to be in a league with someone who continually takes a long time to draft.
Mark, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. I'm just pointing out there are two sides to the coin here and I'm trying to provide additional context so you and everyone else can understand the reasons why Greg and I are making the decisions we do. All I'm saying is that given what we have in place from a tech perspective and given the fact Greg and I are not going to start branding people what types of solutions do you (and others) propose to alleviate the issue you and others are currently feeling? If the issue was just with one customer, well that person isn't playing in the DCs at the present time so there shouldn't be any issues at all right now and nothing preventing all of you from signing up for more DCs. If the issue is more widespread let's have a discussion about what we can do right now to try and alleviate things and enable the format to run more smoothly and be more enjoyable for everyone.
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moyer1313
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by moyer1313 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:32 pm

When I sign up for a slow draft, I expect it to finish in a certain number of days.

If I am going to be traveling, I try to be involved in as few slow drafts as I can during that time.

For example, over the July 4th weekend I had just 1 slow draft going, as opposed to the 8 that I have going on now.

When a draft goes for 3 extra days, that could be a problem for me. If it goes an extra week, that is probably a big problem.

I think the affect that one person can have on a draft isn't quite fully understood.

Here is a chart showing how long various drafts would take based on the number of teams, the number of rounds, and the
average time taken per pick.

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 30 min… 156 …. 7
12 …. 28 …. 30 min… 168 …. 7
12 …. 30 …. 30 min… 180 …. 8
12 …. 35 …. 30 min… 210 …. 9

14 …. 26 …. 30 min… 182 …. 8
14 …. 28 …. 30 min… 196 …. 8
14 …. 30 …. 30 min… 210 …. 9
14 …. 35 …. 30 min… 245 …. 10

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 45 min… 234 …. 10
12 …. 28 …. 45 min… 252 …. 11
12 …. 30 …. 45 min… 270 …. 11
12 …. 35 …. 45 min… 315 …. 13

14 …. 26 …. 45 min… 273 …. 11
14 …. 28 …. 45 min… 294 …. 12
14 …. 30 …. 45 min… 315 …. 13
14 …. 35 …. 45 min… 368 …. 15

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 60 min… 312 …. 13
12 …. 28 …. 60 min… 336 …. 14
12 …. 30 …. 60 min… 360 …. 15
12 …. 35 …. 60 min… 420 …. 18

14 …. 26 …. 60 min… 364 …. 15
14 …. 28 …. 60 min… 392 …. 16
14 …. 30 …. 60 min… 420 …. 18
14 …. 35 …. 60 min… 490 …. 20

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 90 min… 468 …. 20
12 …. 28 …. 90 min… 504 …. 21
12 …. 30 …. 90 min… 540 …. 23
12 …. 35 …. 90 min… 630 …. 26

14 …. 26 …. 90 min… 546 …. 23
14 …. 28 …. 90 min… 588 …. 25
14 …. 30 …. 90 min… 630 …. 26
14 …. 35 …. 90 min… 735 …. 31

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 120 min… 624 …. 26
12 …. 28 …. 120 min… 672 …. 28
12 …. 30 …. 120 min… 720 …. 30
12 …. 35 …. 120 min… 840 …. 35

14 …. 26 …. 120 min… 728 …. 30
14 …. 28 …. 120 min… 784 …. 33
14 …. 30 …. 120 min… 840 …. 35
14 …. 35 …. 120 min… 980 …. 41

............... Ave
............... Time
............... Per.... Total.. Total
Tms. Rds.... Pick... Hours.. Days
12 …. 26 …. 150 min… 780 …. 33
12 …. 28 …. 150 min… 840 …. 35
12 …. 30 …. 150 min… 900 …. 38
12 …. 35 …. 150 min… 1050 …. 44

14 …. 26 …. 150 min… 910 …. 38
14 …. 28 …. 150 min… 980 …. 41
14 …. 30 …. 150 min… 1050 …. 44
14 …. 35 …. 150 min… 1225 …. 51

Most of the drafts that I have taken part in this year were 12 teams and between 22 and 26 Rounds. In those drafts, I have found that usually 1 or 2 teams will take less than 10 minutes per pick, 1/2 of the teams will take 30 minutes or less per pick, and 10 of the 12 teams will take less than 1 hour per pick.

It is the last 2 teams that will determine if the draft takes 6 or 10 days to finish.

If those 2 teams each take 2 1/2 hours per pick, they are adding up to 4 days to the length of the draft.

If they were to average 30 minutes per pick like the other 10 teams, then the draft would finish 4 days sooner.

That is an increase of 67% in the length of the draft all because of 2 teams.

Even if only 1 team is an outlier, they will increase the length of the draft from 6 days to 8 days.

That is a 33% increase in draft length, all because of 1 team.

The NFFC draft lengths are longer than those drafts because pre-drafts can't easily be set for the picks on the ends.

In NFFC drafts that are 12-Teams, 35-Round drafts, if everyone averaged 1 hour per pick, the draft would take 18 days.

But, if 2 drafters average 2 1/2 hours per pick it then takes 22 days to complete. That is 4 additional days to complete because of 2 drafters.

Here is an example of how easy it is to average 2 1/2 hours per pick in an NFFC 12-Team, 35 Round draft:

12 Pre-drafts = 0 hours
12 Picks at an average of 4 hours per pick = 48 hours
9 Picks at an average of 2 1/2 hours per pick = 22 1/2 hours
2 Time Outs = 16 hours
=================================================================================
Total Hours for 35 Picks = 86 1/2 hours (slightly less than 2 1/2 hours per pick)

Another way to think about it is, if everyone took 2 1/2 hours for their pick, a 12-Team, 35-Round NFFC draft would take 44 days to complete. I doubt anyone signs up for a Slow Draft expecting it to take 44 days to complete.

With all of that being said, I don't think that most of us are complaining because someone averages 2 1/2 hours per pick. I think most of us are complaining about the way that they average 2 1/2 hours per pick.

I'll save my opinions for a separate post.

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Tom Kessenich
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Re: If you want to sign up for a super slow draft ...

Post by Tom Kessenich » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:58 pm

That's good data Mark. As Greg has been pointing out, our drafts are averaging around two weeks to complete. Some take a little longer, some a bit quicker. But on average it's in that range. So our drafts typically aren't taking 18 days or so to complete.

My personal opinion is that if you sign up for a football DC and it's taking two weeks or so to complete that's a reasonable time frame. Given the growth in this contest in recent years that would seem to provide evidence the majority would agree with that. That being said, if there is a strong demand for one-week DCs, we'll offer the 4-hour formats or the 6-hour leagues. Again, we're more than willing to do that. We just need 12 people to say they want to do it and we'll get you guys off and running. :)

I don't want to speak for Greg but if we're going to lower the time limit per pick in these leagues as a whole we need more evidence that the format itself is in danger and honestly, I'm not sure that's the case. Certainly, the average amount of time for our DC drafts does not lend itself to the belief the format isn't working properly. However, I'm not so stubborn I would ignore any compelling evidence that tells us shortening the amount of time per pick would help us grow this contest even more. If it would we certainly would look into making that change. But without having the ability to go through every draft and determine the amount of time each player is making per pick I'm not sure we're in a position to truly evaluate that.

Even if we were as I explained in an earlier post just having X amount of time listed does not always provide enough context into why certain players are taking the amount of time to make each pick. Life does have a way of getting involved in these drafts at times which is why just singling out someone for taking too long to make a pick is so highly flawed. Context is always needed to draw a more accurate conclusion.

It seems the strongest concern here is being made in favor of shorter DCs. If that's the case then say the word and I'll start a 4-hour DC thread and once we sell that out and we'll start another. And another and another and as many as everyone wants. Right now that may be the only way to get the shorter time frame some of you are looking for. I believe KJ's point to that (and correct me if I'm wrong KJ) is he's afraid that only the same group of people would sign up for such leagues. If that's true, perhaps that's an indication that the majority thinks the current setup is working fine as Steve said earlier? Again, I'm not trying to be stubborn or argumentative, just asking.

Like I said, my goal here is to find a solution that will work given our current tech offerings and the position Greg and I have taken that we are not going to be labeling people. If the solution is DCs done in a week then say the word and I'll start up a 4-hour DC signup thread today or 6 or whatever time you all tell us you want. Unless I'm missing something that would seem to be the only solution to shortening the DCs to the length some of you are desiring. If I'm missing another idea please let me know.
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