WCOFF bankruptcy

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:13 am

As far as how the High Stakes fantasy space will look after the ESPN expose, my gut tells me that it will not be favorable.

I think back to the recent example of Full Tilt Poker's ponzi scheme. Public perception is not that Full Tilt was a shady enterprise, but online poker in general. Even Bodog and other sites not touched by recent government intervention have not remained untouched by the tainting of that entire industry.

That may be what happens here.

Of course, people still play online poker. People will still play High Stakes. It's just that the caution exhibited by fringe and/or new players considering the space will likely be much greater.

I look back to my thoughts and concerns about entering the space back in 2009. If the atmosphere and negative publicity that surrounds the space today was more evident then, I probably would have stuck to local leagues.

[ December 10, 2011, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

wiljiro2 · Post by **wiljiro2** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 am

I'll ask again - because it may have gotten lost in my last post -

Anyone have any news on Dustin? Is he still in remission?

Not looking for any reason to feel sorry for him, just curious -

W

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:02 am

Originally posted by wiljiro2:
I'll ask again - because it may have gotten lost in my last post -

Anyone have any news on Dustin? Is he still in remission?

Not looking for any reason to feel sorry for him, just curious -

W I last spoke to him in October. At the time, he was a week away from going in for more surgeries.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:33 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:
It's just that the caution exhibited by fringe and/or new players considering the space will likely be much greater. I don't think that's a bad thing, Glenn. Players need to be more cautious based on everything that's happened in the industry the last few years, culminating with the WCOFF debacle. Players need to be well-informed about which games are reputable and which games should be more difficult to trust if they are advertising too good to be true types of payouts and prizes.

I understand the general concern is the high-stakes arena could take a hit based on what transpires with the ESPN piece. That's certainly a possibility without knowing what angle will be taken and how the industry will be represented. But if the piece brings greater awareness for players as to why certain games cannot be trusted I think that will be a good thing for everyone.

The Franchise · Post by **The Franchise** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:00 am

Originally posted by Sack:
One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. Although I agree, those players along with the players that actually won something are basically going to get sh@% from this bankruptcy!

Your/my attorney needs to prove FRAUD in order to try and get the money that everyone is owed.

You can't squeeze water from a stone. The one person that has the money to pay the players is Peter. Back in March he knew there wasn't money to pay the Football players owed from 2010. They still continued to take entry fees for baseball and deceive people while still moving on with the season.

Is that a good enough fraud case and can it be proved? I don't know yet.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:19 am

Originally posted by The Franchise:
quote:Originally posted by Sack:
One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. Although I agree, those players along with the players that actually won something are basically going to get sh@% from this bankruptcy!

Your/my attorney needs to prove FRAUD in order to try and get the money that everyone is owed.

You can't squeeze water from a stone. The one person that has the money to pay the players is Peter. Back in March he knew there wasn't money to pay the Football players owed from 2010. They still continued to take entry fees for baseball and deceive people while still moving on with the season.

Is that a good enough fraud case and can it be proved? I don't know yet. [/QUOTE]A big difference in the claims between the players that won and the players that didn't is that the latter won't sue.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:44 am

Originally posted by 4D:
quote:Originally posted by THE_BLACKHAND:
quote:Originally posted by Todd Zola:
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.

By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.

My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM. after reading all of this todd makes very good sense. while wcoff deserves a good crack in the head , at the end of the day fantasy brings people to the tv to watch their shows and stats that they run across these games. espn is not going to cost itself money. [/QUOTE]ESPN could care less about hsff. They cater to the millions that play ff, of which the high stakes community is but a miniscule part and wouldn't affect their base at all. They go for the sensational and I'm afraid won't give a second thought about how it affects hsff. How many high stakes players care what the "experts" at ESPN say?

Besides which I can't imagine the average viewer being able to discern between the good operators and a wcoff. What they will see first is people lost money. Money that they legitimately won. And at least in the short term I fear it will turn people off to the hsff industry. [/QUOTE]As much as I don't want to see this, I totally agree with Mike's post.

The "average Joe" who talks to his wife about plunking down $1500+ to play in a fantasy league and knows other leagues like this have NOT paid........could be a problem.

Then again, if their better half isn't watching the show, or they don't bring this up, what they don't know won't hurt them.

As for how they will handle the NFFC or FFPC, there is virtually NOTHING negative they can say about either of them, as both have always paid everyone owed......and I would hope they would say that.

Old School · Post by **Old School** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:33 am

Originally posted by The Franchise:
quote:Originally posted by Sack:
One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. Although I agree, those players along with the players that actually won something are basically going to get sh@% from this bankruptcy!

Your/my attorney needs to prove FRAUD in order to try and get the money that everyone is owed.

You can't squeeze water from a stone. The one person that has the money to pay the players is Peter. Back in March he knew there wasn't money to pay the Football players owed from 2010. They still continued to take entry fees for baseball and deceive people while still moving on with the season.

Is that a good enough fraud case and can it be proved? I don't know yet. [/QUOTE]this is pretty much it as i see it. There was fraud IMO, and I'll bet preferential transfers of $ out of the LLC when they saw the writing on the wall back in 2010. Can fraud be proven? Absolutely IMO, but the real Q is how much in attorney fees will it take to do so?

Assuming fraud is proven and the LLC is pierced to go after the principals, I doubt anyone would defend themselves unless they are extremely weatlhy with lots of assets. Otherwise, they will choose yet another form of bankruptcy (personal) to wipe out any judgements.

Just my opinion here

wiljiro2 · Post by **wiljiro2** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:22 am

Originally posted by BillyWaz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 4D:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by THE_BLACKHAND:
[qb] [QUOTE]
The "average Joe" who talks to his wife about plunking down $1500+ to play in a fantasy league and knows other leagues like this have NOT paid........could be a problem.

Then again, if their better half isn't watching the show, or they don't bring this up, what they don't know won't hurt them.

This hits the nail on the head - I feel sorry for the guy who is hassled by family, (specifically wife), about plucking down the money. Then wins a signifacant prize, celebrates the event with a wonderful "See I told you so!" moment where he tell his people he just cashed in a big prize.... Only to have it all come crashing down on him when he does not get paid -

Crushing.... utterly crushing.....

W

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:13 am

Originally posted by wiljiro2:
I'll ask again - because it may have gotten lost in my last post -

Anyone have any news on Dustin? Is he still in remission?

Not looking for any reason to feel sorry for him, just curious -

W He was spotted getting into his car in the last week:)