robert meachem

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:26 pm

Does the NFL include the Meachem play in their "Team Defense" scoring totals?

Points allowed and points scored are a TEAM thing...the sooner you get that through your head...the better. Points are points. If there is a defensive pick 6 or a passing/running TD...it goes to the scoring TEAM and against the opponent. TEAM DEF/SPECIAL TEAM includes many facets of the game...

TEAM points allowed bonus points.
DEF points.
Special Teams points.

"Points Allowed" has no asterisk next to it re: HOW the points were made and by OFF or DEF...it is simply points allowed and if a "TEAM" gives up 30 points they give up 30 points regardless of how it happened.

Logic would dictate that if you do not morph into an offensive player when you make an interception...you would also not morph into a defensive player when you fumble a ball to the other team.

Faulty logic and a poorly written rule that was NEVER intended to cross over to Fantasy Football scoring...just the way the NFL keeps track of things.

The key is what you were from snap to whistle should not change...otherwise eliminate defensive scoring as the NFL rulebook does not allow it, and we should not either. :rolleyes:

[ December 07, 2009, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]

mikeybok · Post by **mikeybok** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:43 pm

Originally posted by Tamuscarecrow:
quote:The NFL rules have nothing to do with the NFFC and it's written rules.You're not serious, are you? EVERY NFL rule effects the fantasy rules and how they get interpreted or you end up playing in a league like your little local league for $40.

The NFFC rules are CLEAR.

Rick ... it is not "like you" to try to change the rules mid stream to fit your needs. What gives?

MikeRead NFL Rule 3, Section 35 as posted in this thread on page 2 or 3 and then see if you want to retract this statement. Fact is, based on the rule, Meacham was an offensive player when he scored on his fumble return and not a defensive player. Therefore, his 6 points shouldn't count for the Saints D and in fact, if you want to be consistent with NFL rules, should count for Meacham. Period, end of discussion. I'm not trying to change anything except the scoring of the play because the NFFC currently has it wrong, not according to me, but according to the NFL.

Is the problem that you folks can't grasp the concept of Meacham turning back into an offensive player after the second change of possession on that play? The rule states "Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when Team B secures possession during the down, AND VICE VERSA FOR EACH CHANGE OF POSSESSION". The last 8 words in the rule change Meacham from a defensive player at the time of his takeaway back to an offensive player at the time of his td. Seems pretty simple and cut and dry to me. [/QUOTE]Rick

Even if the NFFC got it wrong (as you say) ... they can't change the rules until next year. The NFL rules and the NFFC rule have very little to do with each other.

The NFFC has listed what they give fantasy points for. They are listed clearly. Meacham's situation is clearly not included in the rules. This is no different than return TD's not being included in the scoring for individual players either. The NFL awards punt return TD's to individual players ... the NFFC does not. Those are the current rules we are playing under.

The NFFC should not change these rule in middle of the game no matter how much you want them changed (I can't even believe you want them to change the rules).

But is is really not my problem ... so good luck in your bitch fest ... if you get your way ... please ask them to change the RB receptions to a full point per catch starting in week 12 ... I could really use that too!

Big Mike

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:57 pm

Originally posted by Ugly Yellow Tomatoes:
[QUOTE]please ask them to change the RB receptions to a full point per catch starting in week 12 ... I could really use that too!

Big Mike I was thinking long an hard about this last night and came up with a pretty good idea that may not be easy to enforce depending on how the NFL official stats are inputted regarding where a reception was initially caught.

My idea was to reward all passes beyond the line of scrimmage at 1 point, and all passes at or behind the line at 1/2 point, regardless of which position catches the pass.

Just a thought.

eliasond · Post by **eliasond** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:47 pm

Funny how this one play has generated 7 pages of posts, when dozens of similar plays have happened over the years, although not resulting in TDs so nobody noticed.

What I mean is when a defensive team intercepts or recovers a fumble, returns it a few yards, then fumbles it back. All of these times over the years, BOTH of the defense/special teams have been awarded 2 points for a forced turnover. Maybe that's not what everybody would call ideal, but that's the way it's been ruled for years and nobody complained (at least since the McCardell situation, that I'm aware of). Now that the 2nd turnover has resulted in a TD it has come to the forefront again.

But to maintain precedence and consistency with the written rules we have to continue to award the 2nd turnover to the Saints D and thus have to also allow the TD to count as a Saints D touchdown.

That being said, however, I would recommend a slight rule change for next year. First, though, I would continue to count ALL turnovers as 2 points for the team that causes them, regardless of which of the 48 players caused it or recovered it. And I would also continue to award a TD to the Saints D in this case. Maybe a wording change in the rules for next year is in order, such as "Defense and Special Teams will be awarded 6 pts for any TD resulting from a play which includes one or more changes in possession."

The only change I would make is to also award a 2nd TD to Meacham as an individual player, which means I would also award an individual TD to ANY fantasy player who scores a TD by any means.

In my local leagues the rule is worded just that way: "a player gets 6 points for a TD by ANY means" in addition to any points the defense/ST might get for the same play. There is no gray area there, and no possible debate on that aspect in those leagues.

Just my 2 cents -- waiting for the next poster to rip my head off...

Daren E
BD Dawgs
Las Vegas League #2 Total Pts Champ!!!

TamuScarecrow · Post by **TamuScarecrow** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:14 am

You asked for it Daren and here it is. There is NO PRECEDENT OR CONSISTENCY for this play and I'm tired of seeing posts like this. As I've stated in many posts here, the NFL has accommodated the fantasy football arena through Rule 3, Section 35 which specifies when an offensive player is a defensive player and when he is not. You folks don't seem to have a problem turning Meacham into a defensive player but seem to have a serious problem turning him back into an offensive player when he takes possession of the ball from Kareem Moore. READ THE RULE !!!!!!!!!!

As for you, Big Mike, I expected better. I'M NOT ASKING ANYONE TO CHANGE THE RULES. If you can show me in the NFFC rules where Robert Meacham scored as a defensive player I'll listen to your argument. I've showed you what the NFL's interpretation is and you choose to ignore it. Every other major fantasy game has this figured out but you choose to ignore that as well. The objective here is to get the scoring right but you're not on here to do that, are you?

bobsgym13 · Post by **bobsgym13** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:47 am

Originally posted by Tamuscarecrow:
You asked for it Daren and here it is. There is NO PRECEDENT OR CONSISTENCY for this play and I'm tired of seeing posts like this. As I've stated in many posts here, the NFL has accommodated the fantasy football arena through Rule 3, Section 35 which specifies when an offensive player is a defensive player and when he is not. You folks don't seem to have a problem turning Meacham into a defensive player but seem to have a serious problem turning him back into an offensive player when he takes possession of the ball from Kareem Moore. READ THE RULE !!!!!!!!!!

As for you, Big Mike, I expected better. I'M NOT ASKING ANYONE TO CHANGE THE RULES. If you can show me in the NFFC rules where Robert Meacham scored as a defensive player I'll listen to your argument. I've showed you what the NFL's interpretation is and you choose to ignore it. Every other major fantasy game has this figured out but you choose to ignore that as well. The objective here is to get the scoring right but you're not on here to do that, are you? When a defensive team intercepts the ball they become the 'offense' according to the rule that you point to. They become a collection of 11 POSITIONLESS offensive players and if one of them scores you would not question that it is a DEFENSIVE TD.

If they fumble it back - the new 'offense' is a collection of 11 POSITIONLESS players. The NFL no longer differentiates them by position and yardage gained is considered 'return' yardage.

I couldn't care less about what is decided; however, to paint this as 'common sense' and 'you guys don't get it' is ridiculous.

Bob

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:01 am

Originally posted by d&g:
greg and tom your problem here is your rules do not cover this and you two do not want to admit this
bottom line is you have a judgement call here and you two are taking the easy way out
i will be honest with you i started this topic because i do have meachem but i will probably lose my game even if you do give me the points for meachem but i am playing for 2500 tonight

my take on this topic is very simple if you do not have a rule for this spelled out in the rules which you don't then everyone should get the points was. def.=2 saints def.=2 and meachem=6 this way no one gets hurt

gerard Gerard, the only way Meacham can score six points under our scoring system is by recovering an offensive fumble for a touchdown. Our scoring system is set up for this play; you just don't agree with it. I understand that. We all agree that New Orleans' defense should get two points for the defensive fumble recovery and you want Meacham to get offensive points from that point on. But that's not what our rules state.

We can change the way we score this play in future years, but honestly this is how the NFL scores it and it's the way we've set it up within our rules. I don't have a desire to change it, but will certainly listen to the masses for 2010 and beyond. But the NFL records this as a defensive turnover and so do we.

bobsgym13 · Post by **bobsgym13** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:05 am

Tamuscarecrow

How would you score the following:

New Orleans punts, there is a fumble (not a muff) on the return, Meachem scoops it up and scores a TD. By your interpretation of Rule 3, Section 35, you would argue that Meachem should be credited a TD. Correct?

Bob

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:06 am

Originally posted by Henry Muto:
No way the NEW ORLEANS DF should get credit for this TD...no way on earth they get credit for the TD they are on the sidelines folks the offense is on the field. It is a TD for Meachem but no yardage is awarded on the play. Look back at 2003 and you will see McCardell did the same thing and he got a fumble recovery for a TD. You can not score a TD when you are not on the field. It is a travesty if the NO DF gets the TD and Meachem does not. I am sorry but that is terrible rule if it goes to the DF. They are not even on the field. Horrible rule needs to be changed next year. You can not score when your not on the field. Tom you can not count this is a defensive TD they are not on the field. So what if a player throws an INT then fumbles that means once a TO happens it will always be a DEF score that isn't right. This needs to be fixed. Terrible rule if the DF gets the TD. Henry, if other games have their rules written differently for this type of play then that's the way they should score it. There are other commissioner products like Sportsline.com who are scoring it exactly like we are doing it. Whatever your rules state, that's how you have to score it. You can't make up scoring rules during the middle of the season and we certainly won't either. Our rules are specific on this play and it's been scored accordingly.

Some folks don't like the way we have scored it and I understand that. But why would we give the Saints two points for a defensive turnover and then not call them the defense when they returned the fumble unless we specifically said that's how we would score it in our rules? We'd have to specifically change this in our rules how that play should be scored to give the offensive player the points and we haven't done that.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:13 am

Originally posted by Daren E:
Funny how this one play has generated 7 pages of posts, when dozens of similar plays have happened over the years, although not resulting in TDs so nobody noticed.

What I mean is when a defensive team intercepts or recovers a fumble, returns it a few yards, then fumbles it back. All of these times over the years, BOTH of the defense/special teams have been awarded 2 points for a forced turnover. Maybe that's not what everybody would call ideal, but that's the way it's been ruled for years and nobody complained (at least since the McCardell situation, that I'm aware of). Now that the 2nd turnover has resulted in a TD it has come to the forefront again.

But to maintain precedence and consistency with the written rules we have to continue to award the 2nd turnover to the Saints D and thus have to also allow the TD to count as a Saints D touchdown.

That being said, however, I would recommend a slight rule change for next year. First, though, I would continue to count ALL turnovers as 2 points for the team that causes them, regardless of which of the 48 players caused it or recovered it. And I would also continue to award a TD to the Saints D in this case. Maybe a wording change in the rules for next year is in order, such as "Defense and Special Teams will be awarded 6 pts for any TD resulting from a play which includes one or more changes in possession."

The only change I would make is to also award a 2nd TD to Meacham as an individual player, which means I would also award an individual TD to ANY fantasy player who scores a TD by any means.

In my local leagues the rule is worded just that way: "a player gets 6 points for a TD by ANY means" in addition to any points the defense/ST might get for the same play. There is no gray area there, and no possible debate on that aspect in those leagues.

Just my 2 cents -- waiting for the next poster to rip my head off...

Daren E
BD Dawgs
Las Vegas League #2 Total Pts Champ!!! Daren, you make good points, but if we give double points for a play like this then obviously we have to give double points for special teams touchdowns too. We can certainly discuss this during the offseason, but giving Meacham and the Saints' defense points on this play is like giving Reggie Bush and the Saints' D/ST points on a punt return for a touchdown. If that's what the masses want for 2010 and beyond, we can go that route, but I've never been in favor of double dipping in the scoring on one play.

But you make a good point. We'll allow folks to discuss this going forward, but as you say, the Meacham play for now has to stand as is according to our current scoring guidelines. Meacham did not recover an offensive fumble for a touchdown and we do not allow individual scoring on defense or special teams.