This is simply a topic for the off season but wonder what some of you think. This could be removed from the boards but I hope not.
I love entering these leagues and having the live drafts. I had rather beat/lose to people I don't know simply because I can cheer wihtout having to worry about my opponent sitting next to me at the sports bar. Most of us are very competitive.
The problem I have with these leagues is the percentage of the payouts PLUS taxes you have to pay. Sure, some of those taxes can be written off but if you win enough, you're still paying a dear price in taxes. Local leagues on the other hand are pretty much under the table. If you figure out what the total money, only 55-60 percent is actually being paid to the players (not including travel expenses). Is it really worth it?
No attacks please, just opinions
[ February 11, 2007, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: TURBOUGH ]
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Obviously some people think they are worth it, as the NFFC, the "other contest", etc. would not be growing each year.
I feel people who enter these "high stakes events" feel they can compete, and are shooting for the ULTIMATE payoff- $100,000 (in the NFFC's case). Provided you can get to the Championship Round, where else can you have roughly 1 in 50 chance of winning $100,000????
We all have to pay taxes, however I am sure you are aware that you can write off all your expenses against your "wins" (INCLUDING travel expenses). So as long as you don't win too much (and if you do, pay the taxes and smile!), you probably won't be paying too much (if any) in taxes.
Sure, you could get 14 people together at $1,300 a pop, and give back $18,200 in prize money, but there is no BIG payout, and that is what most of us are shooting for IMO.
My goals each year in the Main Event are simple;
1) Win or finish 2nd in my league. This does TWO things;
A) It guarantees I make MORE $$$ than I invested, and...
B) More importantly, it guarantees me a shot at the 100K, with an automatic berth in the playoff round.
Bottom line is WINNING $$$, POSSIBLY paying taxes, and giving you a shot at 100K is well worth it IMO. Add in the great customer service here in the NFFC, and it is a no-brainer.
[ February 11, 2007, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
I feel people who enter these "high stakes events" feel they can compete, and are shooting for the ULTIMATE payoff- $100,000 (in the NFFC's case). Provided you can get to the Championship Round, where else can you have roughly 1 in 50 chance of winning $100,000????
We all have to pay taxes, however I am sure you are aware that you can write off all your expenses against your "wins" (INCLUDING travel expenses). So as long as you don't win too much (and if you do, pay the taxes and smile!), you probably won't be paying too much (if any) in taxes.
Sure, you could get 14 people together at $1,300 a pop, and give back $18,200 in prize money, but there is no BIG payout, and that is what most of us are shooting for IMO.
My goals each year in the Main Event are simple;
1) Win or finish 2nd in my league. This does TWO things;
A) It guarantees I make MORE $$$ than I invested, and...
B) More importantly, it guarantees me a shot at the 100K, with an automatic berth in the playoff round.
Bottom line is WINNING $$$, POSSIBLY paying taxes, and giving you a shot at 100K is well worth it IMO. Add in the great customer service here in the NFFC, and it is a no-brainer.
[ February 11, 2007, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
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Gordon Gekko
- Posts: 7222
- Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:00 pm
Are big money leagues really worth it?
What is with all the "downers" this weekend? First snake and now turdbird. We know snake had a brutal year, and my guess is turdbird is in the same boat.
Now to inject some sound reasoning into this thread.
#1 if you have to publicly question whether high stakes leagues are "worth it", you obviously don't belong in these types of events.
#2 as anyone who has actually won $ playing in high stakes events can attest, you can write-off a lot of costs against your winnings. The only people paying significant taxes are the 100K winner and the Ultimate winner
#3 Greg provides a FIRST CLASS event and always pays out his winners in a timely fashion. He is also an impartial judge if issues arise during the season. I can't say the same holds true for "local leagues".
Bottom line - Some people drive Fords (local momma leagues) and some people drive BMWs (NFFC leagues). Stick with what best suits you. Thanks
Now to inject some sound reasoning into this thread.
#1 if you have to publicly question whether high stakes leagues are "worth it", you obviously don't belong in these types of events.
#2 as anyone who has actually won $ playing in high stakes events can attest, you can write-off a lot of costs against your winnings. The only people paying significant taxes are the 100K winner and the Ultimate winner
#3 Greg provides a FIRST CLASS event and always pays out his winners in a timely fashion. He is also an impartial judge if issues arise during the season. I can't say the same holds true for "local leagues".
Bottom line - Some people drive Fords (local momma leagues) and some people drive BMWs (NFFC leagues). Stick with what best suits you. Thanks
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Sure, you could get 14 people together at $1,300 a pop, and give back $18,200 in prize money, but there is no BIG payout, and that is what most of us are shooting for IMO.
getting 13 friends or acquintances together willing to drop $1300 is no easy task.
1) Most likely you'd have to go outside your comfort zone of people and include some unknowns.
2)Payment up front would be a must(always a problem).
3)with $18,200 at stake the league becomes a very worthwhile collusionable venture.
4)If it's not you are you comfortable with who's holding the $ ?
there's a price involved to eliminate the above 4 issues.
Q
getting 13 friends or acquintances together willing to drop $1300 is no easy task.
1) Most likely you'd have to go outside your comfort zone of people and include some unknowns.
2)Payment up front would be a must(always a problem).
3)with $18,200 at stake the league becomes a very worthwhile collusionable venture.
4)If it's not you are you comfortable with who's holding the $ ?
there's a price involved to eliminate the above 4 issues.
Q
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Originally posted by Quahogs:
Sure, you could get 14 people together at $1,300 a pop, and give back $18,200 in prize money, but there is no BIG payout, and that is what most of us are shooting for IMO.
getting 13 friends or acquintances together willing to drop $1300 is no easy task.
1) Most likely you'd have to go outside your comfort zone of people and include some unknowns.
2)Payment up front would be a must(always a problem).
3)with $18,200 at stake the league becomes a very worthwhile collusionable venture.
4)If it's not you are you comfortable with who's holding the $ ?
there's a price involved to eliminate the above 4 issues.
Q Couldn't have said it better myself Q!
Gekko also brought up a good point that the NFFC pays out their $$$ QUICKLY!
I have played in internet/high stakes events where I did not get paid until May (by a SUPPOSEDLY very reputable company, and August by an internet league that had a complete bozo running it at one time.
KNOWING you will get your cash, and not having to worry about collusion are "BIGGIES" in my book.
Sure, you could get 14 people together at $1,300 a pop, and give back $18,200 in prize money, but there is no BIG payout, and that is what most of us are shooting for IMO.
getting 13 friends or acquintances together willing to drop $1300 is no easy task.
1) Most likely you'd have to go outside your comfort zone of people and include some unknowns.
2)Payment up front would be a must(always a problem).
3)with $18,200 at stake the league becomes a very worthwhile collusionable venture.
4)If it's not you are you comfortable with who's holding the $ ?
there's a price involved to eliminate the above 4 issues.
Q Couldn't have said it better myself Q!
Gekko also brought up a good point that the NFFC pays out their $$$ QUICKLY!
I have played in internet/high stakes events where I did not get paid until May (by a SUPPOSEDLY very reputable company, and August by an internet league that had a complete bozo running it at one time.
KNOWING you will get your cash, and not having to worry about collusion are "BIGGIES" in my book.
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King of Queens
- Posts: 5262
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:00 pm
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
Is it really worth it?Yes, for all of the reasons listed above PLUS:
** THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT **
Dollar for dollar, you won't find a better value in fantasy sports entertainment than the NFFC or NFBC. Period.
Is it really worth it?Yes, for all of the reasons listed above PLUS:
** THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT **
Dollar for dollar, you won't find a better value in fantasy sports entertainment than the NFFC or NFBC. Period.
Are big money leagues really worth it?
I think you have to add Entertainment value to whatever you believe your expected return is.
I think many fantasy players love the thrill of playing for money..and the more on the table the more of a rush it is . But like most things there is a tipping point where you wont feel like you're optimizing your entertainment if you pass your own comfort level. So if your comfort level is a $1300 league it's worth it. If you get too worried or can't afford a $1300 league without the rush outweighing the worry then maybe you're better off in a less expensive league/satellite. For others even $1300 doesn't totally satisfy them and they really enjoy even higher stakes of Ultimate $5000 leagues..or beyond.
To each their own..but the whole industry was surprised about 5 or 6 years ago when it was shown how many are excited and willing to play for over 1K entry fees..and it's just exploded since then and continues to grow..so there are plenty who feel a leagues costing $1000+ in entry fees with a solid payout % and the entertainment that goes with it are worth it to them.
[ February 11, 2007, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Lightning Fast Whip ]
I think many fantasy players love the thrill of playing for money..and the more on the table the more of a rush it is . But like most things there is a tipping point where you wont feel like you're optimizing your entertainment if you pass your own comfort level. So if your comfort level is a $1300 league it's worth it. If you get too worried or can't afford a $1300 league without the rush outweighing the worry then maybe you're better off in a less expensive league/satellite. For others even $1300 doesn't totally satisfy them and they really enjoy even higher stakes of Ultimate $5000 leagues..or beyond.
To each their own..but the whole industry was surprised about 5 or 6 years ago when it was shown how many are excited and willing to play for over 1K entry fees..and it's just exploded since then and continues to grow..so there are plenty who feel a leagues costing $1000+ in entry fees with a solid payout % and the entertainment that goes with it are worth it to them.
[ February 11, 2007, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Lightning Fast Whip ]
The TYRUNT of CDM Fantasy Sports Football Challenge and High Roller Football Contests!
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 35863
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Originally posted by TURBOUGH:
This is simply a topic for the off season but wonder what some of you think. This could be removed from the boards but I hope not.
I love entering these leagues and having the live drafts. I had rather beat/lose to people I don't know simply because I can cheer wihtout having to worry about my opponent sitting next to me at the sports bar. Most of us are very competitive.
The problem I have with these leagues is the percentage of the payouts PLUS taxes you have to pay. Sure, some of those taxes can be written off but if you win enough, you're still paying a dear price in taxes. Local leagues on the other hand are pretty much under the table. If you figure out what the total money, only 55-60 percent is actually being paid to the players (not including travel expenses). Is it really worth it?
No attacks please, just opinions Daryl, I know of national salary cap games that pay back 35 percent of total revenue as they make a killing on the transaction fees. I know of keeper leagues that pay back 50 percnet of total revenue. I know of local leagues that pay back 100 percent of total revenue minus the commissioner service fee. Over the last three years, the NFFC has paid back anywhere from 75 percent to 89 percent for the leagues its run while paying for rental space, employees, advertising, etc. to run these drafts. The high-stakes contests, starting with the WCOFF, really set the standard for best payouts in the industry and if you can find reputable online games that pay back 90 percent or better you should probably jump right in.
But as the others have said, there are advantages to our contest and if you know how to write off expenses you're probably in good shape even if you win in the NFFC. You bring up legitimate points, but as Q has said, it's not easy to find 13 other die-hards like we have here who have the discretionary income to compete at this level. And I guarantee the competition here is as good as it gets. That, maybe as much as the customer service and the other benefits we provide, is what attracts guys like you to the NFFC.
Besides, I would say that Gekko, Josh Ferenc and Rob Benetti have all made more money playing the NFFC than we've made running the NFFC in a single year!
This is simply a topic for the off season but wonder what some of you think. This could be removed from the boards but I hope not.
I love entering these leagues and having the live drafts. I had rather beat/lose to people I don't know simply because I can cheer wihtout having to worry about my opponent sitting next to me at the sports bar. Most of us are very competitive.
The problem I have with these leagues is the percentage of the payouts PLUS taxes you have to pay. Sure, some of those taxes can be written off but if you win enough, you're still paying a dear price in taxes. Local leagues on the other hand are pretty much under the table. If you figure out what the total money, only 55-60 percent is actually being paid to the players (not including travel expenses). Is it really worth it?
No attacks please, just opinions Daryl, I know of national salary cap games that pay back 35 percent of total revenue as they make a killing on the transaction fees. I know of keeper leagues that pay back 50 percnet of total revenue. I know of local leagues that pay back 100 percent of total revenue minus the commissioner service fee. Over the last three years, the NFFC has paid back anywhere from 75 percent to 89 percent for the leagues its run while paying for rental space, employees, advertising, etc. to run these drafts. The high-stakes contests, starting with the WCOFF, really set the standard for best payouts in the industry and if you can find reputable online games that pay back 90 percent or better you should probably jump right in.
But as the others have said, there are advantages to our contest and if you know how to write off expenses you're probably in good shape even if you win in the NFFC. You bring up legitimate points, but as Q has said, it's not easy to find 13 other die-hards like we have here who have the discretionary income to compete at this level. And I guarantee the competition here is as good as it gets. That, maybe as much as the customer service and the other benefits we provide, is what attracts guys like you to the NFFC.
Besides, I would say that Gekko, Josh Ferenc and Rob Benetti have all made more money playing the NFFC than we've made running the NFFC in a single year!
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Are big money leagues really worth it?
Comparing to your local fantasy league to NFFC league would be a lot like comparing your local poker game to a poker tournament in Vegas Casino. They both have appeal but They just aren't the same thing. Some would like Local,Some would like Casino, Some would like Both. You can't be told what you like...or at least most people can't..they decide for them selfs.
The TYRUNT of CDM Fantasy Sports Football Challenge and High Roller Football Contests!
Are big money leagues really worth it?
If your only, or at least primary, purpose in participating in FF was its ROI opportunity you may be well served limiting your exposure by only entering Local Leagues or "Private" Leagues with maximum payouts.
Personally, although I tend to measure my success in terms of ROI, that's not my reason for participating. I suspect, like many, my primary reason for playing FF is its entertainment value. I very much enjoy the analytical and strategical angles attached to it. So, although the objective in this endeavour is to win the contest you entered, and therefore get compensated, I still view it in the category of entertainment and if I ended up in the "red" for the year I would simply chalk it up as an entertainment expense.
Having said that, in the few years I've been participating in this hobby, my inflow has always exceeded my outflow. If that wasn't the case my perspective may have been altered, but I doubt it.
In the few years that I've participated I've entered a number of different contests with varying degrees of payouts. There is no question that one of the main reasons for entering or not entering a contest was its percentage payout. I generally set the minimum at 80%, and wouldn't join a contest that fell much below that. Also high on the list was/is customer service along with the experience of participating in that contest. The experience included perceived level of competition, structure of contest, comraderie of participants, support level provided by organizers etc., etc.
Using that criteria, prior to this past year I had been very satisfied with my experiences at Kahuna Sports, Fantasy Jungle and for the 1st couple of years, Antsports. I have also participated in a local league and a couple private leagues based on the Antsports format.
This was my 1st year in the NFFC contest and the reason I joined was it seemed to meet all my criteria and I was looking for a higher level of competition to replace my participation in my local league and Antsports leagues. I was dropping out of those leagues because of lack of "competition" and other criteria factors.
Well, hoping not to sound like a commercial, I can unequivically state that my 1st year in NFFC lived up to all my expectations. The competition was as good as any I've experienced, probably the only comparitive competition, in the contests I've joined, is Fantasy Jungle. In my Main Event League there was only 1 participant out of 14 that I didn't believe belonged. (Hopefully he got a lot of entertainment value out of it!!) Although as they say, if you can't spot all the guppies, look in the mirror!! In my Main Event DC League, I thought all the participants were very competitive and everyone belonged. I drafted in Las Vegas, and I was 100% satisfied with the experience the organizors provided. It was well run, accomadating and the level of service was outstanding. The comraderie on the message boards is very good (even taking into account a couple of the looooong running pi$$ing contests) and the organizers are always open to and willing to consider suggestions and changes that seem important to the contestants etc, etc..
I went into all that to point out what you (and all of us) are getting for our 20% "vig". And again, if your primary objective is ROI and not entertainment maybe most of that isn't important to you. But, this being the latter for me, competition, customer service, event experience etc., etc. are important and I'm willing to pay something for it. As the organizors have seemed to intimate, I believe in the not to distant future, as FF becomes a greater and greater phenomenom, sponsors will become more prevalent which will in all probability either increase the payouts or enrich the experience.
So, would I like larger payouts...sure, but at least for me, the entertainment value attached to the cost passes my cost/benefit analysis.
Personally, although I tend to measure my success in terms of ROI, that's not my reason for participating. I suspect, like many, my primary reason for playing FF is its entertainment value. I very much enjoy the analytical and strategical angles attached to it. So, although the objective in this endeavour is to win the contest you entered, and therefore get compensated, I still view it in the category of entertainment and if I ended up in the "red" for the year I would simply chalk it up as an entertainment expense.
Having said that, in the few years I've been participating in this hobby, my inflow has always exceeded my outflow. If that wasn't the case my perspective may have been altered, but I doubt it.
In the few years that I've participated I've entered a number of different contests with varying degrees of payouts. There is no question that one of the main reasons for entering or not entering a contest was its percentage payout. I generally set the minimum at 80%, and wouldn't join a contest that fell much below that. Also high on the list was/is customer service along with the experience of participating in that contest. The experience included perceived level of competition, structure of contest, comraderie of participants, support level provided by organizers etc., etc.
Using that criteria, prior to this past year I had been very satisfied with my experiences at Kahuna Sports, Fantasy Jungle and for the 1st couple of years, Antsports. I have also participated in a local league and a couple private leagues based on the Antsports format.
This was my 1st year in the NFFC contest and the reason I joined was it seemed to meet all my criteria and I was looking for a higher level of competition to replace my participation in my local league and Antsports leagues. I was dropping out of those leagues because of lack of "competition" and other criteria factors.
Well, hoping not to sound like a commercial, I can unequivically state that my 1st year in NFFC lived up to all my expectations. The competition was as good as any I've experienced, probably the only comparitive competition, in the contests I've joined, is Fantasy Jungle. In my Main Event League there was only 1 participant out of 14 that I didn't believe belonged. (Hopefully he got a lot of entertainment value out of it!!) Although as they say, if you can't spot all the guppies, look in the mirror!! In my Main Event DC League, I thought all the participants were very competitive and everyone belonged. I drafted in Las Vegas, and I was 100% satisfied with the experience the organizors provided. It was well run, accomadating and the level of service was outstanding. The comraderie on the message boards is very good (even taking into account a couple of the looooong running pi$$ing contests) and the organizers are always open to and willing to consider suggestions and changes that seem important to the contestants etc, etc..
I went into all that to point out what you (and all of us) are getting for our 20% "vig". And again, if your primary objective is ROI and not entertainment maybe most of that isn't important to you. But, this being the latter for me, competition, customer service, event experience etc., etc. are important and I'm willing to pay something for it. As the organizors have seemed to intimate, I believe in the not to distant future, as FF becomes a greater and greater phenomenom, sponsors will become more prevalent which will in all probability either increase the payouts or enrich the experience.
So, would I like larger payouts...sure, but at least for me, the entertainment value attached to the cost passes my cost/benefit analysis.