AFFL and Question to the NFFC

weber7777 · Post by **weber7777** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:25 pm

- Greg and Tom, im just curious .. i just found out about the AFFL and their issues (i've been living in a closet latelylol). Their problems im sure are going to have a negative effect on the industry as a whole in terms of trust..

- is there anything you guys are going to implement or put into effect that will protect your customers from this ever happening here? Im not saying there are issues with you guys.. you guys are great and i love your league and i have no reason to believe there would be issues however im just curious what your take is ..? do you guys have any additional safeguards you have to put in place when running contests of this nature?

Leroy's Aces · Post by **Leroy's Aces** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:02 pm

I am sure Greg will respond to this.

The one thing you can look at is this: One year they had 224 teams when the goal was 350 and they still had the event AND took a financial bath AND STILL paid out. He has a very long track record as the sole owner of this event. Greg (it appears - I do not know him well) has a successful underlying business and has PROVEN time and again to be a very involved business owner. He is highly responsive to customer concerns and does not waste money. He also has reasonable payouts that allow him to hopefully make some money, yet pay out a decent amount.

Dave
Leroy's Aces

weber7777 · Post by **weber7777** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:10 pm

i agree 100 percent.. i was just asking based on your post on the other board actually.. you brought up a good point about the escrow issue.. good idea.

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:05 pm

weber, Greg addresed this issue in another post...

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:09 pm

Check that. It seems the thread was deleted. Weber, I think it's a very grey area there, because one person was claiming the AFFL hadn't paid money TWO years ago too, but the AFFL claims they have a perfect payout record. So here-say came into play here, and this is why, probably for legalities, Greg had to delete the post.

The main thing that you missed is that Greg talked to the guys from the AFFL, and they said that they will be sending out checks soon. Late. But soon.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:50 am

Originally posted by Diesel:
Check that. It seems the thread was deleted. Weber, I think it's a very grey area there, because one person was claiming the AFFL hadn't paid money TWO years ago too, but the AFFL claims they have a perfect payout record. So here-say came into play here, and this is why, probably for legalities, Greg had to delete the post.

The main thing that you missed is that Greg talked to the guys from the AFFL, and they said that they will be sending out checks soon. Late. But soon. It wasn't deleted. It's under Fantasy/NFL Talk:
****://nffcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000773

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:03 am

Originally posted by weber:
- Greg and Tom, im just curious .. i just found out about the AFFL and their issues (i've been living in a closet latelylol). Their problems im sure are going to have a negative effect on the industry as a whole in terms of trust..

- is there anything you guys are going to implement or put into effect that will protect your customers from this ever happening here? Im not saying there are issues with you guys.. you guys are great and i love your league and i have no reason to believe there would be issues however im just curious what your take is ..? do you guys have any additional safeguards you have to put in place when running contests of this nature? Mike,

I'm well aware of the AFFL situation and I did address this under the Fantasy/NFL threads as someone started a post called "A Black Eye for the Industry." I know Neil Wickham of AFFL well enough to have called him last week to ask about this situation and to see if he is going to resolve his prize payments. He told me he plans on paying everyone in the next month, but that he has some work to do. I will be in touch again with him in the next week.

Right now he has told his winners that payments will be late. He hasn't walked away from his winners and so let's hold on before we call this a black eye for the high stakes area. Yes, damage has already been done and confidence in companies like his and ours is now low, but let's hope Neil does the right thing and finds a way to pay off this year's winners.

How are NFFC owners protected? Well, for one thing we don't have a whole bunch of different contests with guaranteed prizes like AFFL does. If you look at his structure, he can be very successful at the low-level contests, but when you guarantee $100,000 here and $75,000 there, it can catch up to you. I think everyone has to be smart with the way they set up their contests and people who play also have to wonder if there's enough interest to eventually fill up those events.

Here, we have guaranteed prizes for our main event and we have a four-year track history of paying off all our prizes in baseball and football. We also have a history of paying out our prizes in full on time even when we didn't reach our team goals. We're also a company with hundreds of millions of dollars in sales each year and the NFBC and NFFC represent less than 1/2 of 1% of the company's total revenue, so we're big enough to cover our butts even when times are tough, like they were in 2004 for baseball and football. We're not two guys in a garage running this event.

Our prizes are also secured through Wells Fargo and through our Cincinnati corporate office, so it's not like Tom and I have them in our personal checking accounts. The corporate secures the prize money and allows us to pay out the prizes immediately after the seasons are completed -- once we have all the paperwork done, that is. So the money is always there.

I'm not sure what more we can do to show that when you play with us that the money is going to be there. Now if I get crazy and guarantee a $500,000 grand prize next year without showing any reason to increase the number of teams 5-fold, then you can worry about us. But for now, I think we have a system in place with a large enough company that the prize money will always be paid by the NFFC and NFBC.

Still, it's a buyer-beware market and that's a shame.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:07 am

I will add that the online championships area of the market is a concern and I am looking at ways that maybe we can get involved and provide more assurance and security. We may get more involved in this area of the football market very soon as I'm working on a partnership that will give us incredible online exposure and visibility. It would include 12-team online contests with entry levels of $125, $250, $500 and $1,000 like our Satellite Leagues. The AFFL situation has accelerated my desire to do this.

Stay tuned.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:21 am

Originally posted by Leroy's Aces:
I am sure Greg will respond to this.

The one thing you can look at is this: One year they had 224 teams when the goal was 350 and they still had the event AND took a financial bath AND STILL paid out. He has a very long track record as the sole owner of this event. Greg (it appears - I do not know him well) has a successful underlying business and has PROVEN time and again to be a very involved business owner. He is highly responsive to customer concerns and does not waste money. He also has reasonable payouts that allow him to hopefully make some money, yet pay out a decent amount.

Dave
Leroy's Aces Dave, it looks like little response is being offered on the other boards. I'll say that your idea is a good one, but again it's up to each business owner to use an escrow account or set that money aside. From Day 1, we've had a Wells Fargo link on our site as we set up an account with them to secure the prize funds. WCOFF should also be applauded as they obviously have a system in place and have paid out their guaranteed prizes in 2002 when they didn't sell out and again in 2007 when they didn't sell out. I would assume they have some type of secured account too with the amount of money they're paying out.

Again, it's a good idea, but you can't force owners to set up escrow accounts. The key is playing in games that tell you ahead of time that the prize money is secured, that have track histories of paying their funds in the past, and knowing the owners of each contest to trust them that payments are guaranteed and will be paid in a timely fashion. Nobody should be paid months after the season is complete when the prize money has been in their hands months and months before.

Yes, it's a buyer beware industry, so be smart.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:26 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by weber:
- Greg and Tom, im just curious .. i just found out about the AFFL and their issues (i've been living in a closet latelylol). Their problems im sure are going to have a negative effect on the industry as a whole in terms of trust..

- is there anything you guys are going to implement or put into effect that will protect your customers from this ever happening here? Im not saying there are issues with you guys.. you guys are great and i love your league and i have no reason to believe there would be issues however im just curious what your take is ..? do you guys have any additional safeguards you have to put in place when running contests of this nature? Mike,

We're not two guys in a garage running this event.
[/QUOTE]This is a great line Greg!

However, picturing this, I would have to ask which one of you is Wayne, and which one of you is Garth?