Comparison of NFFC & WCOFF Request

TradeStar28 · Post by **TradeStar28** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:47 pm

Please allow me to introduce myself - My name is David and I was introduced to NFFC by a stock trader buddy here in New York. I participated in WCOFF for their first season (made playoffs) but did not fare to well in post season play. I see a few familar names here, notably Bongizmo and Jersey Paul (Bong and I were in same league in WCOFF 02). I personally didnt participate in WCOFF '03 for two reasons - #1) wife was prego at the time and #2) I am not too fond of Lenny's attitude towards his paying customers.

Now in 2004, I am looking to enter a high stakes fantasy football league and like what I have read thus far here @ NFFC.

I have briefly skimmed the information regarding entry fee, rules, and payouts for both NFFC & WCOFF. If someone can be so kind to give us a breakdown and comparison between the 2 leagues in reference to entry fee, rules, and payouts (including the rake for the 2 league organizers) it would be much appreciated by myself and also easy for others to soak in as well.

Greg, I wish you great luck in this venture, and potentially feel I will be joining in the very near future.

Thank you,

Liquid

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:39 am

Liquid, I do recognize the name from the WCOFF boards and I'm glad you are considering us. I know that Dyv has done a comparative study on the WCOFF and NFFC and I'll either ask him to post that or I'll post the e-mail that he sent out to his Leaderboard Sports guys. Just so you know, I respect everything that Lenny and Emil have accomplished over there and our business plan isn't to compete with them as they already have a great audience that is dedicated to them. But we feel the multi-city concept is the way to go and our show division is able to negotiate good deals at the host sites that allows us to avoid soaking you guys with the Events Fees or hotel requirements.

I want you to pay for competing, not for eating and drinking my food and drink, or staying at my hotel. So your $1,250 is going to the prize pool and there are no other expenses. That's the way it should be.

I'll let others speak for us, but our NFBC guys found that our multi-city baseball drafts went off without a hitch, everyone left with two full goodie bags of magazines, polo shirts, T-shirts, bobbleheads, etc., and we bought enough drinks to keep everyone happy. This is not only a contest to us, it's an EVENT, and we plan on making it a first-class EVENT where everyone has fun that whole weekend. Hell, we even have a golf event in Las Vegas if you want to compete for prizes, and by offering the Auction Leagues and Draft Masters Leagues we have two full days of football. We'll also have expert Q&A sessions in each city.

Thanks for checking us out and I hope your final decision leads you to the NFFC. I'll let the others do some more convincing for you.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:43 am

Hey Liquid - I competed in the first WCOFF plus the DraftMaster and Auction last year. I had to miss the main event because my (*!@$@#) Brother-In-Law got married that day. Inconsiderate... @&*%^##$... Nevermind that.

Anyway, I decided to skip the WCOFF this year...not that they noticed

Here's the comparison I did.

Disclaimer: I owe nothing to anyone. This is my opinion as a gamer - and my group will throw a dozen or more entries at big money contests just because they exist every year and we love them! Addicted gamers - we confess.

The things that matter to me in a big money event isn't necessarily what the event co-ordinators get..> I could care less if they make a profit or not - that is their problem! (Although I hope they are successful enough to host it again!)

What do I put in vs. what I get out plus usability, reliability and fun.

The Basics

WCOFF: Now entering it's 3rd year - they had 600 teams last year and will put up 672 this year. I believe they are now full. 56 Leagues, 12 teams per league. Draft day is September 11 (Saturday) and is in Vegas only.

NFFC: This is Greg Ambrosius' first year running a high stakes fantasy football competition. I've been impressed with his attitude in baseball. Krause publishing (they do all the fantasy magazines) is who Greg works for and I'm sure the events will occur. Prize money may need to change if the entries aren't there to support the cash, but it will end up being fair IMHO. I expect this will remain open right up until the week before draft. 43 Leagues, 14 teams per league. Drafts are on Sept. 4 simultaneously occurring in Las Vegas, New York and Chicago.

The Cost

WCOFF: $1450 per team + mandatory $285 "events fee" + optional co-manager fee of $150 (option meaning you don't have to have one!) [Included in the events fee you get 1 night hotel and a pre-draft party at the ESPNZone] Total cost for you and a co-manager would be $1885 (but includes 1 night hotel and a party)

NFCC: $1250 per team + $100 co-manager fee. Certain conditions like existing NFBC members may get that $100 co-manager fee waived.

The Prizes

WCOFF:
League 1st = $5,000, League 2nd = $1500, League 3rd = $500
Overall 1st = $200,000 (+ travel and accomodations and tickets to the Super Bowl... probably $10,000 value?), 2nd = $45,000, 3rd = $22,500, 4th = $13,500, 5th = $9,000, 6th = $7,200, 7th = $6,300, 8th = $5,000, 9th and 10th = free 2005 team.
Consolation = $12,500 plus 2 free 2005 teams paid out to the top 10 finishers in the consolation bracket
Bonus: There is also an $11,000 kitty being offered to the 2nd-12th place teams ($1,000 per team) to the 'toughest league' (the league that puts up the most points during weeks 1-11)

NFCC:
League 1st = $5,000, League 2nd = $1500, League 3rd = $500 (the same payouts, but notice 14 team leagues instead of 12 team leagues)
Overall 1st = $200,000, 2nd = $20,000, 3rd = 10,000, 4th = $5,000, 5th = $2,500, 6th = $1,500, 7th = $1250, 8th = $1250
Consolation = $6,000 available for the top 4 finishers in the consolation round.

PayBack Breakdown

WCOFF: Total prizes = $7,000 per league x 56 leagues = $392,000 + $210,000 + $108,500 + $12,500 + $11,000 = $733,500 in prizes + 4 free teams = $739,300
NFCC: Total prizes = $7,000 per league x 43 leagues = $301,000 + $200,000+ $41,500 + $6,000 = $548,500

I'm valuing the hotel room for the WCOFF to be worth $90 (you can find better AND worse hotel deals in Vegas or get comped for free, so I'm just picking a number) and the ESPNzone party to be worth $25:

WCOFF $1885-$115 = $1770 paid in x 56 leagues = $1,189,440 received. Payouts = $739,300 or a payout percentage of 62.155%

NFCC: $1350 x 602 teams = $812.700 received, payouts = $548,500 or a payout percentage of 67.49%

(Obviously these would change if you were doing the WCOFF/NFCC without a co-manager, etc.)

The Rules

Pretty close to the same - not enough differentiation to worry about until you decide on the contest. THEN you better understand the rules

The items I can't factor in... include management attitude, enjoyment. In season service... and quite frankly, the goodie bags, free drinks for the NFFC party and the weekly give aways by Steiner. All that, PLUS a higher payout percentage tilts me towards this contest.

That's why I signed up here.

Good luck if you don't land in my league... may twisted ankles haunt you if you do

Dyv

anthony · Post by **anthony** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:34 am

My, my, my....that Lenny guys is an absolute charm -- assuming you don't ask him the same question that's been asked or in print 5,000 times!...

Greg, good luck on your event.

[ June 03, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Lenny Who? ]

TradeStar28 · Post by **TradeStar28** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:54 am

Thanx alot Dyv for the comparison. I am confident that I will make up my decision by the weekend but I do favor NFFC at this moment.

Greg, you seem like a really cool guy that listens to his customers and tries to make us happy. Obviously, its impossible to make everyone happy but I am sure you will try your hardest.

Here is the new slogan - "WCOFF may have been the first, but NFFC is the best! "

---------------------------------

I started doing a comparison of the rules and I like what I see here with a few things -

The QB td's are worth 6 pts in NFFC as opposed to 4 pts in WCOFF - Basically this will give the top tier QB's more value in the first few rounds. In WCOFF, it was always the "draft 2 RB's in firsr two rounds or your dead" philosophy. So I think the NFFC drafts will be very different in the respective 43 leagues. People will have alot different strategies, etc.

RB's in NFFC will only get .5 pts for a reception, in WCOFF - RB's get 1pt per reception. Not sure of impact other than LT2 may be upset if he was to have a team in NFFC....hehe

Fumbles are - 1 pts in NFFC, which I like. Obviously it should be lost fumble, because players fumble alot and do recover the ball.

Kicker Scoring in NFFC is done very well also where the kicker gets the true pts for the distance of the FG broken down to the 1/10th.

Everything looks good thus far, I will continue to do my homework and post what I find.

Liquid

[ June 03, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Liquid ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:22 am

Lenny, you've always been charming to me, but then I don't question why Keenan McCardell doesn't get the six points for the recovered fumble of an interception for a touchdown. And yes I'd be smiling too if I had 672 spots sold at this point of the football season. You guys have done a marvelous job with that event and you are free to send those who are left out of your full event our way. Then I'll really be smiling!

See, I'm even friendly with my competitors. Must be that Cheesehead blood in me!

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:32 am

Liquid, you are an astute man. I'm not only a cool guy, I'm damn good looking too (well, not really but it seemed like a good place to put that). We are working on some giveaways that will make everyone happy and I think most of the guys who were at our baseball events will tell you that we enjoy buying during "happy hour" as well. We plan on going the extra yard to make sure every NFFC member is getting their money's worth with our event/contest.

I like the slogan. We weren't first in baseball either, but we are the biggest now and 2005 is going to be a BIG year for the National Fantasy Baseball Championship. We have the same hopes for football in 2004.

Our scoring is different for a reason and if you run the numbers from 2003 you'll find that five QBs rank in the Top 10 in scoring. Granted, the dropoff between QBs isn't as severe as it is at RB, but the playing field is a little more level between RBs, WRs and QBs in the NFFC and some unique strategies can be implemented thanks to 6 points for a passing TD and only .5 points for a RB reception.

Yes, that's minus one for lost fumbles. The kicker's scoring beyond 30 yards seemed like an obvious one and I look forward to the phone calls when someone says it was a 47-yard field goal and not a 46-yard field goal as reported in the box scores. Should be fun.

You can always call me personally or e-mail me at [email protected] for a quick response. We have every intention of being at your service and making this a first-class event/contest. Fifteen years of working in this industry tells me that's the only way to treat the customer.

Nag' · Post by **Nag'** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:08 am

Originally posted by Liquid:
...I am not too fond of Lenny's attitude towards his paying customers...Liquid...oh how we've missed you on the other boards, old buddy, old pal!

Fair is fair, and I won't defend Lenny on this particular accusation. I've been with WCOFF since day one, literally, and there have definitely been instances where I did not agree with his tactics.
But I've learned that in life as in business, it's rare to come across people that are "perfect", and Lenny's case, what he lacks in tact, he definitely makes up for in how he runs his event - which is first class, and I've yet to hear otherwise. So if Greg & staff can continue being "good guys" while dealing with thousands of different thoughts, opinions and suggestions AND end up with a first class event, then the NFFC will be the most succesfull FF contest in the world.

mrbill40 · Post by **mrbill40** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:00 am

I have played in WCOFF since day one, last year I competed in Draftmaster, Auction and Main event, I have never had a problem with Lenny or Emil or their event, we are all in business to make a buck, if you don't like the payouts don't particpate in the event.

TradeStar28 · Post by **TradeStar28** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:21 am

Originally posted by mrbill40:
I have played in WCOFF since day one, last year I competed in Draftmaster, Auction and Main event, I have never had a problem with Lenny or Emil or their event, we are all in business to make a buck, if you don't like the payouts don't particpate in the event. No one here is bashing the other Fantasy football leagues. I mentioned once why I would be interested in NFFC. It is very childish to waste my time bashing others. WCOFF is filled and its only June and I congratulate them and wish all competing in it the best of luck.

I am from NY and feel that having a chance to do the event in NY is a great conveinence to me. I have a newborn baby so I dont mind having the draft in New York. (Dont get me wrong though...getting away for 3 days from the wife and spending it in Sin city with gambling and fantasy football is heaven too!)

Greg has an excellent reputation in the Fantasy world and I am counting on him to fill this event with his intended 602 teams. The price is fair, the payout is better than the other event, and all of the goodies we can look forward to sounds wonderful!

BTW Greg, what is your game plan to market NFFC? Magazines, newsletters, radio shows ? Also, what is the total count of people who joined thus far ?

Thanx!