Take the worst 2-3 fantasy QBs like T Jackson and M Moore and add 60 rushing yards and a TD. What've you got? A top 6 fantasy QB.
If Tebow can make his other numbers passable he will be much better than QB11. If he can't well then, QB11 it is...
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Mike, I focused on last night's game because that was his worst as a starter so far this season. Overall, he's QB11 currently in average points per game as a starter in the NFFC. And as I pointed out there are a large number of QBs ranked ahead of him who have done worse than his worst game. Some of them have been worse several times, making them far less reliable than Tebow has been thus far.
I'm glad you finally admitted that you will never give him any credit. That's all I was trying to get you to do.
Oh, one more thing ...
TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're comparing Tebow's average over just 5 games and vs. some of the worst teams in the league to QBs who have played 9 or 10 games? Huh? Wouldn't it stand to reason that those who have played twice as many games as him might have twice as many stinkers? 
Here's the detailed breakdown of NFFC QBs over their last 5 games.
Unfortunately for the cult, that is NOT the case.
Mike, I focused on last night's game because that was his worst as a starter so far this season. Overall, he's QB11 currently in average points per game as a starter in the NFFC. And as I pointed out there are a large number of QBs ranked ahead of him who have done worse than his worst game. Some of them have been worse several times, making them far less reliable than Tebow has been thus far.
I'm glad you finally admitted that you will never give him any credit. That's all I was trying to get you to do.
Oh, one more thing ...
TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're comparing Tebow's average over just 5 games and vs. some of the worst teams in the league to QBs who have played 9 or 10 games? Huh? Wouldn't it stand to reason that those who have played twice as many games as him might have twice as many stinkers? 
Here's the detailed breakdown of NFFC QBs over their last 5 games.
Unfortunately for the cult, that is NOT the case.
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by felixflamingo:
If Tebow can make his other numbers passable he will be much better than QB11. If he can't well then, QB11 it is... Perhaps. OR... take away late-game heroics and he's back to 10-15 PPG!
That has been my point all along - that he cannot sustain this lucky-ass late recovery of what looks like horrible fantasy QB play for 55+ minutes. And 5 games isn't enough to conclude that premise wrong yet. But by season's end, if he somehow learns how to throw or his defense continues to put him in close games and he continues to miracle-march down the field late in games to salvage his fantasy day, then I will come back out here and admit how wrong I was on him. (Notice I didn't say or give a rat's ass about him WINNING for his NFL team?! )
If Tebow can make his other numbers passable he will be much better than QB11. If he can't well then, QB11 it is... Perhaps. OR... take away late-game heroics and he's back to 10-15 PPG!
That has been my point all along - that he cannot sustain this lucky-ass late recovery of what looks like horrible fantasy QB play for 55+ minutes. And 5 games isn't enough to conclude that premise wrong yet. But by season's end, if he somehow learns how to throw or his defense continues to put him in close games and he continues to miracle-march down the field late in games to salvage his fantasy day, then I will come back out here and admit how wrong I was on him. (Notice I didn't say or give a rat's ass about him WINNING for his NFL team?! )Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
Is 9/20 for 104 yards passing the test against a good pass defense? In terms of passing production absolutely not. It's pathetic. But more than 60 yards rushing, including a touchdown and leading the team to a victory while posting decent fantasy numbers against a strong defense is definitely passing the test in my opinion. . [/QUOTE]He posted horrible PASSING numbers against a strong PASSING defense (4th in passing points allowed). He posted nice rushing numbers against the team that allows the 22nd most fantasy points rushing. :rolleyes:
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
Is 9/20 for 104 yards passing the test against a good pass defense? In terms of passing production absolutely not. It's pathetic. But more than 60 yards rushing, including a touchdown and leading the team to a victory while posting decent fantasy numbers against a strong defense is definitely passing the test in my opinion. . [/QUOTE]He posted horrible PASSING numbers against a strong PASSING defense (4th in passing points allowed). He posted nice rushing numbers against the team that allows the 22nd most fantasy points rushing. :rolleyes:
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Tom,
Sorry for starting the new Tebow thread. I actually think the Tebow topic is way overblown but figured the point I wanted to make would get ignored in this thread.
No big deal..
Here was my point if anyone has an opinion...
I actually like the guy. Root hard for the guy. I want to see him do well. However, I would not be surprised if we do not see him as a starter in this league again after this season.
I know he is playing now. I know he has been the QB in a number of games the Broncos won. I am pretty confident most people would agree the Broncos didn't win those games BECAUSE of Tebow and maybe at times in spite of him.
I actually think Tebow COULD be a decent NFL QB if one NFL team totally committed to him. When I say totally commit I mean build an offense around his unique style of play. His unique skill set. It means getting the kind of personnel to fit this unique system. A ton of run/pass option plays. Lots of design rolls, screens, mis-direction, etc. Roll the pocket and allow him the option to throw or run after one or two reads.
The problem with this is if he failed and or got hurt (and his style of play likely will get him hurt) your team would be crippled and it could take years for an NFL organization to recover from that kind of commitment to Tebow's style of offense.
In a world full of sickening athletes who are impossible to respect let alone root for, Tebow is a breath of fresh air and class. I feel bad that he is this target of unreasonable attacks by people who likely resent how much attention he gets even though unlike many athletes, he isn't a self promoter who is asking for it.
He is an easy guy to root for, but I cannot see a way he can have a consistently successful career in the NFL. The ONLY way I can see him having any real success is if an NFL team totally commits to him with massive offensive system and personnel changes and I am not sure any team is willing to do that.
These last few weeks of 2011 may be the only time we see this guy playing as a week to week starter at QB in the NFL in my opinion.
Sorry for starting the new Tebow thread. I actually think the Tebow topic is way overblown but figured the point I wanted to make would get ignored in this thread.
No big deal..
Here was my point if anyone has an opinion...
I actually like the guy. Root hard for the guy. I want to see him do well. However, I would not be surprised if we do not see him as a starter in this league again after this season.
I know he is playing now. I know he has been the QB in a number of games the Broncos won. I am pretty confident most people would agree the Broncos didn't win those games BECAUSE of Tebow and maybe at times in spite of him.
I actually think Tebow COULD be a decent NFL QB if one NFL team totally committed to him. When I say totally commit I mean build an offense around his unique style of play. His unique skill set. It means getting the kind of personnel to fit this unique system. A ton of run/pass option plays. Lots of design rolls, screens, mis-direction, etc. Roll the pocket and allow him the option to throw or run after one or two reads.
The problem with this is if he failed and or got hurt (and his style of play likely will get him hurt) your team would be crippled and it could take years for an NFL organization to recover from that kind of commitment to Tebow's style of offense.
In a world full of sickening athletes who are impossible to respect let alone root for, Tebow is a breath of fresh air and class. I feel bad that he is this target of unreasonable attacks by people who likely resent how much attention he gets even though unlike many athletes, he isn't a self promoter who is asking for it.
He is an easy guy to root for, but I cannot see a way he can have a consistently successful career in the NFL. The ONLY way I can see him having any real success is if an NFL team totally commits to him with massive offensive system and personnel changes and I am not sure any team is willing to do that.
These last few weeks of 2011 may be the only time we see this guy playing as a week to week starter at QB in the NFL in my opinion.
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Bullgod:
Where did all the tebow haters go? We are probably raping and pillaging a village.
Where did all the tebow haters go? We are probably raping and pillaging a village.
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Shrink Attack
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Renman:
The problem with this is if he failed and or got hurt (and his style of play likely will get him hurt) your team would be crippled and it could take years for an NFL organization to recover from that kind of commitment to Tebow's style of offense.
This is the most germane point of your post.
A team in the NFL simply can't base their future on this style of quarterbacking. Going forward, they would need to draft and/or trade for players that fit this option scheme. That kind of commitment could stunt the critical development of young players at the other skill positions, particularly at Wide Receiver.
I think Tebow is a unique talent in many ways. But then what happens when Tebow gets hurt? Or falters? Or retires to pursue spiritual interests? Or is gone for any other reason? Would there be anyone else like him around to fill that role? If not, the organization could be set back for years.
I listened carefully to the pregame interview with John Elway on the NFL Network. He choose his words carefully. They are going with Tebow now because he undoubtedly gives the Broncos the best chance of winning right now. The kid is winning games, there is no denying that. But I did not get the feeling that this Hall of Fame QB is going to build his future team around an option offense. And I've seen no evidence to support the idea that Tebow can suddenly develop into an NFL caliber passer. The mechanics and the innate throwing skill just isn't there.
And by the way...I'm not a "hater" like so many Tebow worshipers like to tar and feather anybody else who may voice a dissenting opinion. I'm calling it like I see it, which everyone has the right to do.
[ November 18, 2011, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Shrink Attack ]
The problem with this is if he failed and or got hurt (and his style of play likely will get him hurt) your team would be crippled and it could take years for an NFL organization to recover from that kind of commitment to Tebow's style of offense.
This is the most germane point of your post.
A team in the NFL simply can't base their future on this style of quarterbacking. Going forward, they would need to draft and/or trade for players that fit this option scheme. That kind of commitment could stunt the critical development of young players at the other skill positions, particularly at Wide Receiver.
I think Tebow is a unique talent in many ways. But then what happens when Tebow gets hurt? Or falters? Or retires to pursue spiritual interests? Or is gone for any other reason? Would there be anyone else like him around to fill that role? If not, the organization could be set back for years.
I listened carefully to the pregame interview with John Elway on the NFL Network. He choose his words carefully. They are going with Tebow now because he undoubtedly gives the Broncos the best chance of winning right now. The kid is winning games, there is no denying that. But I did not get the feeling that this Hall of Fame QB is going to build his future team around an option offense. And I've seen no evidence to support the idea that Tebow can suddenly develop into an NFL caliber passer. The mechanics and the innate throwing skill just isn't there.
And by the way...I'm not a "hater" like so many Tebow worshipers like to tar and feather anybody else who may voice a dissenting opinion. I'm calling it like I see it, which everyone has the right to do.
[ November 18, 2011, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Shrink Attack ]
"Deserve" ain't got nothin' to do with it
---Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven
---Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Personally I'm not a Tebow "worshiper" or a worshiper of any person, I just love to see him succeed despite unfair and pathetic attacks on him because of his faith.
i respect dissenting opinions his football skills , but most often it has to mention his beliefs in the attack, and that's when I want him to shut em all up.
i respect dissenting opinions his football skills , but most often it has to mention his beliefs in the attack, and that's when I want him to shut em all up.
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Mike, you challenged him to score well. He has. I'm fairly certain you made the point previously he hadn't faced a decent defense either. Well he's done both. The Jets may not be a good team but they clearly have a good defense, and a very good pass defense. Tebow has passed the tests you insisted he had to pass. You keep hammering away at him despite the fact he's done well for fantasy and the Broncos are winning at a high level with him. I simply think it's interesting that you still refuse to give him any credit for what he's done.
I noticed you ignored the point I made about Tebow's consistency. So let me bring up some examples:
Tebow's worst game in NFFC scoring came last night and he got 18 points. Of the QBs currently ranked ahead of him in average points per game, the following have all had worse games than that:
Philip Rivers (three games)
Ben Roethlisberger (four games)
Michael Vick (three games)
Tony Romo (two games)
Eli Manning (one game)
Matthew Stafford (one game)
Cam Newton (one game)
Drew Brees (one game)
The only two QBs not on that list are Rodgers and Brady. Everyone else - even Brees - has had at least one game worse than Tebow's worst. From a fantasy perspective, that type of consistency is huge. Fantasy owners can start Tebow every week secure with the knowledge that regardless of the opposition he is going to get you good-to-great production. I don't know how he does it and as I said way back when he got the starting job, from a fantasy perspective I don't care. I'm just enjoying the production. I notice you conveniently focused just on last night's game. Have you noticed though that he's scored less than 20 in 3 of his 5 starts? That's a staggering 60% (and I really do expect that number to rise or at least remain consistent over the remainder of the season). I'm sorry, but I don't want anything to do with a fantasy QB who can't break 20 more often than not, especially if he's barely doing that by last-minute unsustainable heroics. :rolleyes:
If we're going to play numbers, let's get them ALL on the table? Here are the top 23 NFFC QBs in average PPG over their last 5 games each, and the number of games under 20 points each had:
1 Rodgers 0
2 Brees 1
3 Newton 2
4 Brady 0
5 EManning 1
6 Roethlisberger 2
7 Rivers 2
8 Romo 1
9 Stafford 2
10 Ryan 1
11 Tebow 3
12 Vick 2
13 Dalton 4
14 Sanchez 2
15 Schaub 2
16 ASmith 3
17 Freeman 2
18 Fitzpatrick 3
19 Cassel 4
20 Hasselbeck 4
21 Cutler 3
22 Flacco 4
23 McCoy 4
Tebow had 3 of those games. All of the QBs above him had less. AND... I suspect if we look at this again at the end of the season, he will have MORE (as a percentage of his games) than all of the QBs above him too. Yes, he's consistent in that he has shown a high floor so far. And I agree that is a good thing for fantasy H2H purposes. For pure scoring and winning scoring titles, consistency is not so important.
But yeah, I guess I'M the only one who is biased on this. Funny, I don't bring up his NFL wins or his perseverence or how much faith his team has in him or anything like that; I simply focus on the numbers. The bottom line is that I will NEVER give him ANY credit for his TEAM winning because it doesn't make a bit of difference in FANTASY football! [/QUOTE]What did he score last year Mike as a rookie?
He led teams to fantasy championships in Josh McD offense with huge numbers
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Mike, you challenged him to score well. He has. I'm fairly certain you made the point previously he hadn't faced a decent defense either. Well he's done both. The Jets may not be a good team but they clearly have a good defense, and a very good pass defense. Tebow has passed the tests you insisted he had to pass. You keep hammering away at him despite the fact he's done well for fantasy and the Broncos are winning at a high level with him. I simply think it's interesting that you still refuse to give him any credit for what he's done.
I noticed you ignored the point I made about Tebow's consistency. So let me bring up some examples:
Tebow's worst game in NFFC scoring came last night and he got 18 points. Of the QBs currently ranked ahead of him in average points per game, the following have all had worse games than that:
Philip Rivers (three games)
Ben Roethlisberger (four games)
Michael Vick (three games)
Tony Romo (two games)
Eli Manning (one game)
Matthew Stafford (one game)
Cam Newton (one game)
Drew Brees (one game)
The only two QBs not on that list are Rodgers and Brady. Everyone else - even Brees - has had at least one game worse than Tebow's worst. From a fantasy perspective, that type of consistency is huge. Fantasy owners can start Tebow every week secure with the knowledge that regardless of the opposition he is going to get you good-to-great production. I don't know how he does it and as I said way back when he got the starting job, from a fantasy perspective I don't care. I'm just enjoying the production. I notice you conveniently focused just on last night's game. Have you noticed though that he's scored less than 20 in 3 of his 5 starts? That's a staggering 60% (and I really do expect that number to rise or at least remain consistent over the remainder of the season). I'm sorry, but I don't want anything to do with a fantasy QB who can't break 20 more often than not, especially if he's barely doing that by last-minute unsustainable heroics. :rolleyes:
If we're going to play numbers, let's get them ALL on the table? Here are the top 23 NFFC QBs in average PPG over their last 5 games each, and the number of games under 20 points each had:
1 Rodgers 0
2 Brees 1
3 Newton 2
4 Brady 0
5 EManning 1
6 Roethlisberger 2
7 Rivers 2
8 Romo 1
9 Stafford 2
10 Ryan 1
11 Tebow 3
12 Vick 2
13 Dalton 4
14 Sanchez 2
15 Schaub 2
16 ASmith 3
17 Freeman 2
18 Fitzpatrick 3
19 Cassel 4
20 Hasselbeck 4
21 Cutler 3
22 Flacco 4
23 McCoy 4
Tebow had 3 of those games. All of the QBs above him had less. AND... I suspect if we look at this again at the end of the season, he will have MORE (as a percentage of his games) than all of the QBs above him too. Yes, he's consistent in that he has shown a high floor so far. And I agree that is a good thing for fantasy H2H purposes. For pure scoring and winning scoring titles, consistency is not so important.
But yeah, I guess I'M the only one who is biased on this. Funny, I don't bring up his NFL wins or his perseverence or how much faith his team has in him or anything like that; I simply focus on the numbers. The bottom line is that I will NEVER give him ANY credit for his TEAM winning because it doesn't make a bit of difference in FANTASY football! [/QUOTE]What did he score last year Mike as a rookie?
He led teams to fantasy championships in Josh McD offense with huge numbers
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by thegambler:
no matter who he beats there will be people to say: well, they must be a bad team. if he beats SD next week, people will say they, SD, are no good.
almost everyone thought the jets had/have a good def. hell, i thought the jets would kick their butts. but tebow found a way to win and score 19 pts. with bad play calling, bad wr's and bad rb's.
its almost like the coach's and managment want him to lose. i know that can't be true BUT trading away your best wr and then calling the game they called last night and the game before...has to make you wonder. Great post Andrew sir
no matter who he beats there will be people to say: well, they must be a bad team. if he beats SD next week, people will say they, SD, are no good.
almost everyone thought the jets had/have a good def. hell, i thought the jets would kick their butts. but tebow found a way to win and score 19 pts. with bad play calling, bad wr's and bad rb's.
its almost like the coach's and managment want him to lose. i know that can't be true BUT trading away your best wr and then calling the game they called last night and the game before...has to make you wonder. Great post Andrew sir