Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Regarding the Lions being the last team to defend him well,... that was also the last time he faced a team that didn't have either a completely inept offense or defense. You keep trying to minimize what Tebow has done, Mike. Tebow will just keep winning. He's doing everything you insisted he needed to do when this debate first began. He's doing it consistently over time and he's beating good defenses. Next up is a great offense so we'll see how he fares. Based on his history to date, it would be foolish to bet against him. [/QUOTE]Tom, you keep saying he's done everything I've insisted he do. Well, not really, if we're being honest, has he? I wanted to see him succeed vs. "good" teams - and by good, I don't mean, a good defense and a bottom-feeding offense or vice-versa, which is exactly what he's had the luxury of facing every game except the Lions. I'm not even saying he has to face TOP defenses or offenses, but at least above average would be a bigger test, IMO.
I also wanted to see him score better for fantasy purposes. Yes, he has a high floor (so far), in that he seems to pull out 18 points or more each week. But really, I just can't imagine him playing a whole season getting half his fantasy points in the last 5 minutes of every game.
I'm sorry, he may float your boat as a low-end NFFC starter, but for me, I want more upside in a fantasy QB than the 20 PPG or so he's averaged the last six games. And until I see him either start putting up the occasional 35-40 point fantasy game and against at least average to above average TEAMS (not just a good offense OR defense), I will remain skeptical on him as an NFFC QB. [/QUOTE]Dead on it again Sandman
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
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Old School
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Regarding the Lions being the last team to defend him well,... that was also the last time he faced a team that didn't have either a completely inept offense or defense. You keep trying to minimize what Tebow has done, Mike. Tebow will just keep winning. He's doing everything you insisted he needed to do when this debate first began. He's doing it consistently over time and he's beating good defenses. Next up is a great offense so we'll see how he fares. Based on his history to date, it would be foolish to bet against him. [/QUOTE]Tom, you keep saying he's done everything I've insisted he do. Well, not really, if we're being honest, has he? I wanted to see him succeed vs. "good" teams - and by good, I don't mean, a good defense and a bottom-feeding offense or vice-versa, which is exactly what he's had the luxury of facing every game except the Lions. I'm not even saying he has to face TOP defenses or offenses, but at least above average would be a bigger test, IMO.
I also wanted to see him score better for fantasy purposes. Yes, he has a high floor (so far), in that he seems to pull out 18 points or more each week. But really, I just can't imagine him playing a whole season getting half his fantasy points in the last 5 minutes of every game.
I'm sorry, he may float your boat as a low-end NFFC starter, but for me, I want more upside in a fantasy QB than the 20 PPG or so he's averaged the last six games. And until I see him either start putting up the occasional 35-40 point fantasy game and against at least average to above average TEAMS (not just a good offense OR defense), I will remain skeptical on him as an NFFC QB. [/QUOTE]Lets go back to all the earlier posts to highlight
how wrong you and the other haters were. Every team he beats is "not a good team" after he wins.
Just admit you were wrong for once. As a rookie in an offense that let him loose, he put up monster fantasy stats, or did u forget?
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Regarding the Lions being the last team to defend him well,... that was also the last time he faced a team that didn't have either a completely inept offense or defense. You keep trying to minimize what Tebow has done, Mike. Tebow will just keep winning. He's doing everything you insisted he needed to do when this debate first began. He's doing it consistently over time and he's beating good defenses. Next up is a great offense so we'll see how he fares. Based on his history to date, it would be foolish to bet against him. [/QUOTE]Tom, you keep saying he's done everything I've insisted he do. Well, not really, if we're being honest, has he? I wanted to see him succeed vs. "good" teams - and by good, I don't mean, a good defense and a bottom-feeding offense or vice-versa, which is exactly what he's had the luxury of facing every game except the Lions. I'm not even saying he has to face TOP defenses or offenses, but at least above average would be a bigger test, IMO.
I also wanted to see him score better for fantasy purposes. Yes, he has a high floor (so far), in that he seems to pull out 18 points or more each week. But really, I just can't imagine him playing a whole season getting half his fantasy points in the last 5 minutes of every game.
I'm sorry, he may float your boat as a low-end NFFC starter, but for me, I want more upside in a fantasy QB than the 20 PPG or so he's averaged the last six games. And until I see him either start putting up the occasional 35-40 point fantasy game and against at least average to above average TEAMS (not just a good offense OR defense), I will remain skeptical on him as an NFFC QB. [/QUOTE]Lets go back to all the earlier posts to highlight
how wrong you and the other haters were. Every team he beats is "not a good team" after he wins.
Just admit you were wrong for once. As a rookie in an offense that let him loose, he put up monster fantasy stats, or did u forget?
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Old School
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
There is something unexplainable happening and the stars continue to align for that team each week. Precisely. What I can't understand is why people would be reluctant to give Tebow credit for playing a key role in what's happening. As I posted earlier, the exact same players were on the team earlier in the season when the Broncos were 1-4. Can it simply be a coincidence that every aspect of the team has improved once Tebow became the starting QB? I don't believe it is.
Is Tebow the sole reason for the turnaround? Of course not. Aaron Rodgers isn't solely responsible for the Packers' unbeaten season either. But like the Packers with Rodgers, the Broncos are feeding off what Tebow is doing. That's what great players do. They make everyone around them better. Tebow has absolutely done that without question. [/QUOTE]Very true Tom. To the haters, why let facts get in the way of the truth?
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
There is something unexplainable happening and the stars continue to align for that team each week. Precisely. What I can't understand is why people would be reluctant to give Tebow credit for playing a key role in what's happening. As I posted earlier, the exact same players were on the team earlier in the season when the Broncos were 1-4. Can it simply be a coincidence that every aspect of the team has improved once Tebow became the starting QB? I don't believe it is.
Is Tebow the sole reason for the turnaround? Of course not. Aaron Rodgers isn't solely responsible for the Packers' unbeaten season either. But like the Packers with Rodgers, the Broncos are feeding off what Tebow is doing. That's what great players do. They make everyone around them better. Tebow has absolutely done that without question. [/QUOTE]Very true Tom. To the haters, why let facts get in the way of the truth?
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CoMoHusker
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Old School, I'm curious to what your definiton of a "good" team is. Currently, of the eight games in which Tebow has started, the Broncos have only beaten one team that would be in the play-offs if they started today. That team of course being the Jets, who are currently the 6th seed and no lock to get in.
Much of Tebow's success is being measured in wins so shouldn't we measure the quality of opponents in which they've beaten in the same way? I consider the good teams each year to be the ones that have done what is necessary to get into the play-offs. I would entertain the arguement that last year's NFC West champ wasn't a good team but they satisfied the criteria to get in.
What Tebow is doing brings excitement every Sunday and he has been a key ingredient in his team's success.
I don't think that because I feel that there are a lot of other factors playing into that success makes me a Tebow hater. For fantasy purposes, unless I had one of the top 7 QB's, it would be very difficult for me not to play him each week. I'm sure I would pull my hair out watching the game for the first three quarters but he continues to find a way that in the end supports his fantasy relevance.
[ December 13, 2011, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: CoMoHusker ]
Much of Tebow's success is being measured in wins so shouldn't we measure the quality of opponents in which they've beaten in the same way? I consider the good teams each year to be the ones that have done what is necessary to get into the play-offs. I would entertain the arguement that last year's NFC West champ wasn't a good team but they satisfied the criteria to get in.
What Tebow is doing brings excitement every Sunday and he has been a key ingredient in his team's success.
I don't think that because I feel that there are a lot of other factors playing into that success makes me a Tebow hater. For fantasy purposes, unless I had one of the top 7 QB's, it would be very difficult for me not to play him each week. I'm sure I would pull my hair out watching the game for the first three quarters but he continues to find a way that in the end supports his fantasy relevance.
[ December 13, 2011, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: CoMoHusker ]
Go Big Red!
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Seriously Old School, are you suggesting the Broncos HAVE beaten good teams since he took over and not just a host of bad teams and/or missing the players that might make us consider them good? If you are, then I finally understand your perspective on all this. :rolleyes:
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes:
[ December 13, 2011, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes:
[ December 13, 2011, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
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Old School
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Sandman62:
Seriously Old School, are you suggesting the Broncos HAVE beaten good teams since he took over and not just a host of bad teams and/or missing the players that might make us consider them good? If you are, then I finally understand your perspective on all this. :rolleyes:
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes: Your'e just making my case with this post.
Jets/ Bears not good ?
What is a good team? By your definition it's one that beats Tebow
Come on here and backtrack some more after Tebow puts up big fantasy stats this week
against a "good" team.
And I dont live in fantasy football. You guys question his ability to play
He's far more accurate than those two garbage QB's who played last night (Bradford & TJ) yet no one questions them.
And u can't measure a man's heart with spreadsheets or stats
[ December 13, 2011, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Old School ]
Seriously Old School, are you suggesting the Broncos HAVE beaten good teams since he took over and not just a host of bad teams and/or missing the players that might make us consider them good? If you are, then I finally understand your perspective on all this. :rolleyes:
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes: Your'e just making my case with this post.
Jets/ Bears not good ?
What is a good team? By your definition it's one that beats Tebow
Come on here and backtrack some more after Tebow puts up big fantasy stats this week
against a "good" team.
And I dont live in fantasy football. You guys question his ability to play
He's far more accurate than those two garbage QB's who played last night (Bradford & TJ) yet no one questions them.
And u can't measure a man's heart with spreadsheets or stats
[ December 13, 2011, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Old School ]
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CoMoHusker
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Old School:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Seriously Old School, are you suggesting the Broncos HAVE beaten good teams since he took over and not just a host of bad teams and/or missing the players that might make us consider them good? If you are, then I finally understand your perspective on all this. :rolleyes:
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes: Your'e just making my case with this post.
Jets/ Bears not good ?
What is a good team? By your definition it's one that beats Tebow
Come on here and backtrack some more after Tebow puts up big fantasy stats this week
against a "good" team.
And I dont live in fantasy football. You guys question his ability to play
He's far more accurate than those two garbage QB's who played last night (Bradford & TJ) yet no one questions them. [/QUOTE]By all accounts, record wise the Jets are an average team. They have had some recent wins and loses by other teams that have them positoned to get into the play-offs. Can you seriously say the Bears are a good team without Cutler and Forte?
I do question Tebow's ability to play and be effective over the course of a 16 game season. He continues to struggle for large portions of the game each week which should raise concerns. I have never questioned his motivation, leadership, or drive. It's the eye test for me. I watch all the games each week and he seems to struggle the most over large stretches of the game, more so than other QB's. The end result is usually good but can you hang your hat on that always being the case?
And actually, he's not as accurate as either of those QB's that played last night. Tebow is only completing 48.3% of his passes while Jackson is at 60.7% and Bradford at 53.5% None of these numbers are great by any means when it comes to QB play at the NFL level.
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Seriously Old School, are you suggesting the Broncos HAVE beaten good teams since he took over and not just a host of bad teams and/or missing the players that might make us consider them good? If you are, then I finally understand your perspective on all this. :rolleyes:
On just the final fantasy stats being achieved each week, I've already admitted that he can be considered a below-average NFFC starter. But also, if I were ever considering drafting him, I would feel compelled to weigh HOW he's gotten his points. I would be scared as hell that the late-game magic would run out and his high floor lowered. And without any 35-40 point potential, I wouldn't want to take the risk of several 10-12 point games at some point.
Maybe this polarized debate has less to do with objective fantasy evaluation and more to do with how much his loyal followers take offense to different opinions and constantly attack anyone who doesn't Tebow to him (and you)? Geez. :rolleyes: Your'e just making my case with this post.
Jets/ Bears not good ?
What is a good team? By your definition it's one that beats Tebow
Come on here and backtrack some more after Tebow puts up big fantasy stats this week
against a "good" team.
And I dont live in fantasy football. You guys question his ability to play
He's far more accurate than those two garbage QB's who played last night (Bradford & TJ) yet no one questions them. [/QUOTE]By all accounts, record wise the Jets are an average team. They have had some recent wins and loses by other teams that have them positoned to get into the play-offs. Can you seriously say the Bears are a good team without Cutler and Forte?
I do question Tebow's ability to play and be effective over the course of a 16 game season. He continues to struggle for large portions of the game each week which should raise concerns. I have never questioned his motivation, leadership, or drive. It's the eye test for me. I watch all the games each week and he seems to struggle the most over large stretches of the game, more so than other QB's. The end result is usually good but can you hang your hat on that always being the case?
And actually, he's not as accurate as either of those QB's that played last night. Tebow is only completing 48.3% of his passes while Jackson is at 60.7% and Bradford at 53.5% None of these numbers are great by any means when it comes to QB play at the NFL level.
Go Big Red!
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Seeing this is a fantasy football board, I DO think stats are more relevant than heart. I could care less if the Broncos win or lose; all I care about in this context is his ability to produce fantasy points. And I stand by my contention that that is easier to do when every opponent has either an absolutely horrible offense (like the Bears and most of his opponents) or defense (like the Vikings and Pats).
Your inability to stay at all focused on a FANTASY FOOTBALL evaluation and your desire to make this personal is mind-boggling. Is he your nephew or something?
Your inability to stay at all focused on a FANTASY FOOTBALL evaluation and your desire to make this personal is mind-boggling. Is he your nephew or something?
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Old School
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Here's your'e earlier post Mike on why You really dont like him.
"But maybe the reason some people are so against him has less to do with HIM than his band of merry uber-gushing followers, who so desperately seem to seek a hero and resort to arrogance and insults when everyone else doesn't share their unbridled enthusiasm? [Roll Eyes] Personally, I've already gone on record with another reason why I'm not thrilled about him - I just don't like fantasy-relevant QBs coming off the waiver wire because it diminishes the draft efforts/strategies of those who used early picks to get stud QBs (i.e. Vick last year). Nothing single-handedly disrupts the QB landscape more than getting such an added (lucky!) boost in the middle of the season. So yes, I hope ALL wire QBs serve no better purpose than an occasional bye week fill-in. That's my selfish reason. But I also share in many others' opinions of his style of play, lack of arm strength, slow delivery, poor defense reading skills, priority desire to shuffle feet and take off running when he should be progressing through his reads, and the NFL defenses ability to counter such a one-dimensional player. This isn't Michael Vick we're talking about here, who defenses still have to play honestly or he'll air out a perfect strike 50 yards downfield to DeSean. No, Tebow couldn't even hit a wide-open Eric Decker streaking down the middle of the field. And though he may have been bigger, stronger, faster than others in college, not so in the NFL. "
It's gonna nullify your drafting prowess?
"But maybe the reason some people are so against him has less to do with HIM than his band of merry uber-gushing followers, who so desperately seem to seek a hero and resort to arrogance and insults when everyone else doesn't share their unbridled enthusiasm? [Roll Eyes] Personally, I've already gone on record with another reason why I'm not thrilled about him - I just don't like fantasy-relevant QBs coming off the waiver wire because it diminishes the draft efforts/strategies of those who used early picks to get stud QBs (i.e. Vick last year). Nothing single-handedly disrupts the QB landscape more than getting such an added (lucky!) boost in the middle of the season. So yes, I hope ALL wire QBs serve no better purpose than an occasional bye week fill-in. That's my selfish reason. But I also share in many others' opinions of his style of play, lack of arm strength, slow delivery, poor defense reading skills, priority desire to shuffle feet and take off running when he should be progressing through his reads, and the NFL defenses ability to counter such a one-dimensional player. This isn't Michael Vick we're talking about here, who defenses still have to play honestly or he'll air out a perfect strike 50 yards downfield to DeSean. No, Tebow couldn't even hit a wide-open Eric Decker streaking down the middle of the field. And though he may have been bigger, stronger, faster than others in college, not so in the NFL. "
It's gonna nullify your drafting prowess?
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Old School
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Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Sandman62:
Seeing this is a fantasy football board, I DO think stats are more relevant than heart. I could care less if the Broncos win or lose; all I care about in this context is his ability to produce fantasy points. And I stand by my contention that that is easier to do when every opponent has either an absolutely horrible offense (like the Bears and most of his opponents) or defense (like the Vikings and Pats).
Your inability to stay at all focused on a FANTASY FOOTBALL evaluation and your desire to make this personal is mind-boggling. Is he your nephew or something? You are saying I"M THE ONE who attacks folks that don't agree with me on these boards?
Wow. Pot , meet kettle
Mike, yes I like and admire Tebow as a role model. What I don;t like is Tebow being attacked BECAUSE of his faith and not football skills.
That was my post weeks ago and it has panned out to be true, on TV, websites. Every attack has to mention his faith. If that wasn't the case, I would not take offense
Seeing this is a fantasy football board, I DO think stats are more relevant than heart. I could care less if the Broncos win or lose; all I care about in this context is his ability to produce fantasy points. And I stand by my contention that that is easier to do when every opponent has either an absolutely horrible offense (like the Bears and most of his opponents) or defense (like the Vikings and Pats).
Your inability to stay at all focused on a FANTASY FOOTBALL evaluation and your desire to make this personal is mind-boggling. Is he your nephew or something? You are saying I"M THE ONE who attacks folks that don't agree with me on these boards?
Wow. Pot , meet kettle
Mike, yes I like and admire Tebow as a role model. What I don;t like is Tebow being attacked BECAUSE of his faith and not football skills.
That was my post weeks ago and it has panned out to be true, on TV, websites. Every attack has to mention his faith. If that wasn't the case, I would not take offense