Tim Tebow - Let's Talk

[Sandman62]

Originally posted by Al R G:
I am not going to read this entire post since it is obvious you are on a mission and I really dont care what you or some blogger thinks or knows. I saw Tebow burn the top rated passing defense in the NFL WITH their top players playing and Dick Lebeau has won more super bowls than any DC in the NFL. PERIOD. See you next week. Way to highlight whatever makes your point Al, and just ignore the rest. :rolleyes:

Yes, Polamalu, Harrison and Farrior played.

How about these players? Or are they not "top" enough for you?


Shuffling the offensive line has been a constant for the Steelers this season, and that did not stop Sunday.

Left tackle Max Starks did not play in the second half after injuring his right knee. Starks was hurt late in the second quarter, and he returned to the game briefly. Jonathan Scott took over at the position.

With All-Pro Maurkice Pouncey out for the third game in the past four weeks with a high-ankle sprain, Doug Legursky started at center, and Chris Kemoeatu was at left guard. Legursky, returning from a shoulder injury that sidelined him for the regular-season finale, had been slated to start at left guard before Pouncey experienced a setback.

...

One of the best seasons of safety Ryan Clark's career had one of the worst endings. Clark, not in uniform because of a medical condition that led to a near-death experience following a game in Denver in 2007, had to watch from the sideline as Tim Tebow torched the Steelers' secondary.

"Other than last year's Super Bowl. it's the worst loss I've had," said Clark, who led the Steelers with 100 tackles during the regular season. "For it to be a game that's heavily weighed on the secondary, you wish you could have been out there with your guys."

Ike Taylor gave up three pass plays that exceeded 50 yards to Broncos receiver Demaryius Thomas.

...

The Steelers had their defensive line depth pushed to the limit. Nose tackle Casey Hampton left the game after the first series with a knee injury and did not return. Defensive end Brett Keisel went down with a groin injury early in the second quarter; he also did not return. The Steelers played most of the game with Ziggy Hood and rookie Cameron Heyward at end and second-year man Steve McLendon at tackle.

On top of that, no one can say we saw the usual mobile, rush-ducking Big Ben we've seen his whole career. Most players don't even suit up with high ankle sprains.

I really don't think we're as far apart as the passion in this long-winded thread suggests. We've admitted that Tebow's had some good production and is a marginal starting NFFC QB. If only you (and others) would admit that he's had a little help along the way and the benefit of facing a lot of teams this year at much less than full-strength?

[ January 09, 2012, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

[alanr824]

Originally posted by Sandman62:
quote:Originally posted by Al R G:
I am not going to read this entire post since it is obvious you are on a mission and I really dont care what you or some blogger thinks or knows. I saw Tebow burn the top rated passing defense in the NFL WITH their top players playing and Dick Lebeau has won more super bowls than any DC in the NFL. PERIOD. See you next week. Way to highlight whatever makes your point Al, and just ignore the rest. :rolleyes:

Yes, Polamalu, Harrison and Farrior played.

How about these players? Or are they not "top" enough for you?


Shuffling the offensive line has been a constant for the Steelers this season, and that did not stop Sunday.

Left tackle Max Starks did not play in the second half after injuring his right knee. Starks was hurt late in the second quarter, and he returned to the game briefly. Jonathan Scott took over at the position.

With All-Pro Maurkice Pouncey out for the third game in the past four weeks with a high-ankle sprain, Doug Legursky started at center, and Chris Kemoeatu was at left guard. Legursky, returning from a shoulder injury that sidelined him for the regular-season finale, had been slated to start at left guard before Pouncey experienced a setback.

...

One of the best seasons of safety Ryan Clark's career had one of the worst endings. Clark, not in uniform because of a medical condition that led to a near-death experience following a game in Denver in 2007, had to watch from the sideline as Tim Tebow torched the Steelers' secondary.

"Other than last year's Super Bowl. it's the worst loss I've had," said Clark, who led the Steelers with 100 tackles during the regular season. "For it to be a game that's heavily weighed on the secondary, you wish you could have been out there with your guys."

Ike Taylor gave up three pass plays that exceeded 50 yards to Broncos receiver Demaryius Thomas.

...

The Steelers had their defensive line depth pushed to the limit. Nose tackle Casey Hampton left the game after the first series with a knee injury and did not return. Defensive end Brett Keisel went down with a groin injury early in the second quarter; he also did not return. The Steelers played most of the game with Ziggy Hood and rookie Cameron Heyward at end and second-year man Steve McLendon at tackle.

On top of that, no one can say we saw the usual mobile, rush-ducking Big Ben we've seen his whole career. Most players don't even suit up with high ankle sprains.

I really don't think we're as far apart as the passion in this long-winded thread suggests. We've admitted that Tebow's had some good production and is a marginal starting NFFC QB. If only you (and others) would admit that he's had a little help along the way and the benefit of facing a lot of teams this year at much less than full-strength? [/QUOTE]I admit the Steelers had some hurt players, the most important of those on offense... but the steelers top defensive players were playing and their top safety was playing. The Steelers game planned on the Broncos running the ball and throwing short passes from the option. A game plan that both Buffalo and KC had and it worked. If the Broncos chose to run the ball and run the option, the Steelers would have won that game easily. The Broncos chose to throw the ball down field and any defense they played yesterday would have been burned because no one expected Tebow or the Denver offense to succeed... And admit it, did you read that entire post? Seriously, I just now chose to read the entire post and that was 5 minutes of my life I wish I had back.

[ January 09, 2012, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]

[CoMoHusker]

I have already said that I thought Tebow made some big throws yesterday and helped lead his team to a huge upset win. It is however unbelievable to me that this one performance in some way disregards the severe struggles that he has had over the past few weeks and the ones that were still on display yesterday.

Yes, he threw for 316 yards...on 10 completions. I will go out on a limb and say that Tebow will never again in his career average over 30 yards per completion. He also once again completed less than 50% of his throws and it was his inability to move the offense in the 2nd half (and a McGahee fumble) that even kept a struggling Pitt offense in the game. I would be curious to know how many times other NFL teams were able to win games this year with their starting QB completing ten or few passes. My guess is not many. I also believe that up until that short throw that DT took to the house, Tebow had something like 45 yards passing in the 2nd half.

People can say all they want about how great Tebow plays under pressure and when the games matter most. Didn't the games matter when his team was 8-5 and in a close division race? I would think so and he responded by playing absolute horrid football over that stretch, with his team really backing into the playoffs. The issue is that he is so inconsistent throwing the ball that he allows lesser teams to hang around and in most cases, teams with great offenses have numerous extra possessions that make it difficult for his team to overcome. See Lions and Patriots.

I, like Sandman have never questioned his leadership ability or character. I greatly respect that and how he plays the game hard every time out. What I do question and what yesterday's performance did little to put to rest is how sustainable he can be in the league. If you think that a nice win and a 300 yard passing performance proves all of us "haters" once again wrong, then so be it.

All I know is that if I'm drafting a fantasy QB, I'm staying away from a guy who was dead last in the NFL in completion percentage and needs a 30 yard avg/completion to put up 38 fantasy points. There are just way too many more reliable options out there.

There was virtual silence from all the "Tebowites" while he struggled and now everyone is back to tell us non believers how wrong we are and "I told you so" after one nice game. We are all entitled to our opinions and I will be sticking with mine until the consistency in Tebow's game grows. Maybe this will happen but in looking at the Broncos schedule for next year, I see more tough opponents that won't make that easy.

[ January 09, 2012, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: CoMoHusker ]

[Sandman62]

Very well said CoMo.

[alanr824]

Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
I have already said that I thought Tebow made some big throws yesterday and helped lead his team to a huge upset win. It is however unbelievable to me that this one performance in some way disregards the severe struggles that he has had over the past few weeks and the ones that were still on display yesterday.

Yes, he threw for 316 yards...on 10 completions. I will go out on a limb and say that Tebow will never again in his career average over 30 yards per completion. He also once again completed less than 50% of his throws and it was his inability to move the offense in the 2nd half (and a McGahee fumble) that even kept a struggling Pitt offense in the game. I would be curious to know how many times other NFL teams were able to win games this year with their starting QB completing ten or few passes. My guess is not many. I also believe that up until that short throw that DT took to the house, Tebow had something like 45 yards passing in the 2nd half.

People can say all they want about how great Tebow plays under pressure and when the games matter most. Didn't the games matter when his team was 8-5 and in a close division race? I would think so and he responded by playing absolute horrid football over that stretch, with his team really backing into the playoffs. The issue is that he is so inconsistent throwing the ball that he allows lesser teams to hang around and in most cases, teams with great offenses have numerous extra possessions that make it difficult for his team to overcome. See Lions and Patriots.

I, like Sandman have never questioned his leadership ability or character. I greatly respect that and how he plays the game hard every time out. What I do question and what yesterday's performance did little to put to rest is how sustainable he can be in the league. If you think that a nice win and a 300 yard passing performance proves all of us "haters" once again wrong, then so be it.

All I know is that if I'm drafting a fantasy QB, I'm staying away from a guy who was dead last in the NFL in completion percentage and needs a 30 yard avg/completion to put up 38 fantasy points. There are just way too many more reliable options out there.

There was virtual silence from all the "Tebowites" while he struggled and now everyone is back to tell us non believers how wrong we are and "I told you so" after one nice game. We are all entitled to our opinions and I will be sticking with mine until the consistency in Tebow's game grows. Maybe this will happen but in looking at the Broncos schedule for next year, I see more tough opponents that won't make that easy. So when did it stop being the NFL? These are the best of the best. Teams lose bad games. Drew Brees lost to ST Louis and Tampa Bay. Yes, Tebow looked horrible in those 3 games. The NFL seemed to catch up with him.. Tebow was 7-4 as a starter and won his first playoff game. He is not Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. Never said he was. I give credit where credit is due. Others give excuses where credit is due. Tebow is the ultimate underdog, with an obvious flaw in his throwing motion, but he is won the big game his entire life and add yesterday to his list of accomplishments. He will eventually win a super bowl, if Denver puts the right players around him, specifically a pass catching TE and a pass catching RB. Will it happen this year, most likely not. But, bringing Denver from nowhere, to the playoffs and a win against the AFC defending champions deserves some credit, especially the way he did it, doing things that everyone said he couldn't do. His receivers were not wide open. He threw perfect passes the entire night and after re-watching the game, he had 4 throw aways avoiding sacks and 2 perfectly thrown passes that were dropped, so that messes up your percentages just a little. He is not ever going to be a 50 pass per game QB. He doesn't have to be. Its funny that you guys just seem to show up when a few of us are just happy for a win. I have been here all along, never left. Maybe not in this thread, but others, even during the down times... If you want to continue to downplay his accomplishments, that's fine. You have every right to say what you think... but fact is fact.

[CoMoHusker]

Your right Al, teams do have let downs and have bad loses but when most teams do it, their QB is not going 6/22 for 80 total yards and a couple turnovers. It's the inconsistency that continues to be the issue for me. The good NFL QB's may have off games but the peaks and valleys that are in Tebow's games are glaring. Hell, there was a two game stretch were he went 60 mins of live football action without completing a pass! Those are the types of alarming things that make me question if he is a sustainable commodity in this league.

His own organization had questions leading up to yesterday and that was after they were already in the playoffs. Shouldn't that say something?

For my sake, I hope a large majority are still drinking the Tebow Kool-aid around draft time next year. IMO, that can only help us that won't be willing to take on that risk.

[Old School]

Originally posted by Al R G:
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
I have already said that I thought Tebow made some big throws yesterday and helped lead his team to a huge upset win. It is however unbelievable to me that this one performance in some way disregards the severe struggles that he has had over the past few weeks and the ones that were still on display yesterday.

Yes, he threw for 316 yards...on 10 completions. I will go out on a limb and say that Tebow will never again in his career average over 30 yards per completion. He also once again completed less than 50% of his throws and it was his inability to move the offense in the 2nd half (and a McGahee fumble) that even kept a struggling Pitt offense in the game. I would be curious to know how many times other NFL teams were able to win games this year with their starting QB completing ten or few passes. My guess is not many. I also believe that up until that short throw that DT took to the house, Tebow had something like 45 yards passing in the 2nd half.

People can say all they want about how great Tebow plays under pressure and when the games matter most. Didn't the games matter when his team was 8-5 and in a close division race? I would think so and he responded by playing absolute horrid football over that stretch, with his team really backing into the playoffs. The issue is that he is so inconsistent throwing the ball that he allows lesser teams to hang around and in most cases, teams with great offenses have numerous extra possessions that make it difficult for his team to overcome. See Lions and Patriots.

I, like Sandman have never questioned his leadership ability or character. I greatly respect that and how he plays the game hard every time out. What I do question and what yesterday's performance did little to put to rest is how sustainable he can be in the league. If you think that a nice win and a 300 yard passing performance proves all of us "haters" once again wrong, then so be it.

All I know is that if I'm drafting a fantasy QB, I'm staying away from a guy who was dead last in the NFL in completion percentage and needs a 30 yard avg/completion to put up 38 fantasy points. There are just way too many more reliable options out there.

There was virtual silence from all the "Tebowites" while he struggled and now everyone is back to tell us non believers how wrong we are and "I told you so" after one nice game. We are all entitled to our opinions and I will be sticking with mine until the consistency in Tebow's game grows. Maybe this will happen but in looking at the Broncos schedule for next year, I see more tough opponents that won't make that easy. So when did it stop being the NFL? These are the best of the best. Teams lose bad games. Drew Brees lost to ST Louis and Tampa Bay. Yes, Tebow looked horrible in those 3 games. The NFL seemed to catch up with him.. Tebow was 7-4 as a starter and won his first playoff game. He is not Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. Never said he was. I give credit where credit is due. Others give excuses where credit is due. Tebow is the ultimate underdog, with an obvious flaw in his throwing motion, but he is won the big game his entire life and add yesterday to his list of accomplishments. He will eventually win a super bowl, if Denver puts the right players around him, specifically a pass catching TE and a pass catching RB. Will it happen this year, most likely not. But, bringing Denver from nowhere, to the playoffs and a win against the AFC defending champions deserves some credit, especially the way he did it, doing things that everyone said he couldn't do. His receivers were not wide open. He threw perfect passes the entire night and after re-watching the game, he had 4 throw aways avoiding sacks and 2 perfectly thrown passes that were dropped, so that messes up your percentages just a little. He is not ever going to be a 50 pass per game QB. He doesn't have to be. Its funny that you guys just seem to show up when a few of us are just happy for a win. I have been here all along, never left. Maybe not in this thread, but others, even during the down times... If you want to continue to downplay his accomplishments, that's fine. You have every right to say what you think... but fact is fact. [/QUOTE]You are right Al, but you should know you can' t use facts to argue against ignorance.

And I agree with you. If Tebow is with team that actually believes in him, I think he wins at least one Super Bowl

[CoMoHusker]

Old School, please tell me why having concerns over a QB who had the worst completion percentage in the league, played two regular season games where he completed six passes or less, and had a QB rating of 72.9 makes anyone ignorant.

Those are facts. And for me raise questions of consistency and sustainability that I wouldn't want if I were starting a franchise or attempting to rebuild one around someone.

And since this is a FFB MB, those same facts aren't very appealing for a position that is so important to your team's overall scoring ability each week.

[ January 09, 2012, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: CoMoHusker ]

[Tom Kessenich]

CoMo, from a fantasy perspective Tebow didn't have a three-game meltdown. He delivered against both the Patriots and Bills in most scoring systems. Only against the Chiefs did he soil the bed in the worst of ways. Of course, it should go without saying that many QBs throw up a stinker at some point so it was inevitable that Tebow would as well. The level of poor production certainly merits discussion because Tebow was horrific but the fact it took him until his 13th start to have his first poor fantasy game is rather impressive.

Again I'll say that other than the elite QBs, you'll be hard-pressed to find another QB who has been anywhere near as consistent or reliable as a QB1 as Tebow has been either this season as a starter or last season.

From a real-world NFL perspective, his previous two games were quite bad, especially Week 17. I said to Greg today that I think what gets lost with Tebow is the fact he's a young QB and young QBs are going to struggle. With Tebow, I think that gets lost because when he struggles he REALLY struggles so the level of ineptitude is sometimes/often far worse than your typical young QB will generate.

Someone like Blaine Gabbert stunk but he stunk consistently. There weren't the extreme highs and lows with his performance like there have been with Tebow. And really, there hasn't been another young QB that I've seen (maybe ever) who in a blink can go from horrific to magnificent. Tebow is a rare breed in that regard. But at the end of the day, he's still a young QB and if we're going to give guys like Gabbert, Ponder and other young QBs time to develop perhaps we should afford Tebow the same opportunity to grow and screw up and (hopefully) learn from his mistakes.

What happened yesterday does not erase the meltdowns of the previous two weeks. Those remain factors in how we evaluate Tebow going forward. But when you're able to step on a big stage against a Super Bowl contender with the top-ranked defense in the league and loads of playoff experience and knock them out, that says a lot about you too. The jury's still out on how good Tebow will become but I'm not sure a lot of other young QBs could have delivered the performance he did yesterday. So when evaluating his potential, we've seen the floor and it was frightening but we just caught a glimpse of the ceiling and it looked pretty damn special.

[alanr824]

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
CoMo, from a fantasy perspective Tebow didn't have a three-game meltdown. He delivered against both the Patriots and Bills in most scoring systems. Only against the Chiefs did he soil the bed in the worst of ways. Of course, it should go without saying that many QBs throw up a stinker at some point so it was inevitable that Tebow would as well. The level of poor production certainly merits discussion because Tebow was horrific but the fact it took him until his 13th start to have his first poor fantasy game is rather impressive.

Again I'll say that other than the elite QBs, you'll be hard-pressed to find another QB who has been anywhere near as consistent or reliable as a QB1 as Tebow has been either this season as a starter or last season.

From a real-world NFL perspective, his previous two games were quite bad, especially Week 17. I said to Greg today that I think what gets lost with Tebow is the fact he's a young QB and young QBs are going to struggle. With Tebow, I think that gets lost because when he struggles he REALLY struggles so the level of ineptitude is sometimes/often far worse than your typical young QB will generate.

Someone like Blaine Gabbert stunk but he stunk consistently. There weren't the extreme highs and lows with his performance like there have been with Tebow. And really, there hasn't been another young QB that I've seen (maybe ever) who in a blink can go from horrific to magnificent. Tebow is a rare breed in that regard. But at the end of the day, he's still a young QB and if we're going to give guys like Gabbert, Ponder and other young QBs time to develop perhaps we should afford Tebow the same opportunity to grow and screw up and (hopefully) learn from his mistakes.

What happened yesterday does not erase the meltdowns of the previous two weeks. Those remain factors in how we evaluate Tebow going forward. But when you're able to step on a big stage against a Super Bowl contender with the top-ranked defense in the league and loads of playoff experience and knock them out, that says a lot about you too. The jury's still out on how good Tebow will become but I'm not sure a lot of other young QBs could have delivered the performance he did yesterday. So when evaluating his potential, we've seen the floor and it was frightening but we just caught a glimpse of the ceiling and it looked pretty damn special. Perfectly said Tom