Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
- Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30172
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by BobSquad:
This is about Tebow vs Stafford - seriously?
Edited to add - if someone can come up with another risk-reward low-end QB1/high-end QB2 who they think is a good analogy for Tebow next season we can move in that direction. Stafford struck me as a very obvious example but I'm not married to it by any means. [/QUOTE]Sanchez, Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Flacco, etc.
I wouldn't take Tebow over any of them.
(1) 35-40 point game will be nullified by 3-4 where he scores 10-12....or less!
Decent #2 DC QB......nothing more IMO. [/QUOTE]I'd take Tebow over all of those QBs. I don't think any of them have his upside. However, I agree and have said that if you take him as a QB1 you're assuming the risk. I think all of those QBs, including Tebow, are better served being your QB2.
For what it's worth there might be just as much risk with Sanchez getting benched next season as Tebow. And there should be questions about Fitzgerald getting benched too although it's probably unlikely due to his extension.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by BobSquad:
This is about Tebow vs Stafford - seriously?
Edited to add - if someone can come up with another risk-reward low-end QB1/high-end QB2 who they think is a good analogy for Tebow next season we can move in that direction. Stafford struck me as a very obvious example but I'm not married to it by any means. [/QUOTE]Sanchez, Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Flacco, etc.
I wouldn't take Tebow over any of them.
(1) 35-40 point game will be nullified by 3-4 where he scores 10-12....or less!
Decent #2 DC QB......nothing more IMO. [/QUOTE]I'd take Tebow over all of those QBs. I don't think any of them have his upside. However, I agree and have said that if you take him as a QB1 you're assuming the risk. I think all of those QBs, including Tebow, are better served being your QB2.
For what it's worth there might be just as much risk with Sanchez getting benched next season as Tebow. And there should be questions about Fitzgerald getting benched too although it's probably unlikely due to his extension.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Just going back a few games.....
Tebow wasn't the reason they lost to New England the first time.
Tebow should DEFINITELY take the blame for the Buffalo game.
Tebow DEFINITELY lost the KC game.
Tebow should get credit for winning the Steelers game.
Tebow wasn't to blame for last night against NE.
Just my opinion......but Denver's defense was not good down the stretch, and running a high school style offense isn't going to reap big points (except against the Steelers! )
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Just going back a few games.....
Tebow wasn't the reason they lost to New England the first time.
Tebow should DEFINITELY take the blame for the Buffalo game.
Tebow DEFINITELY lost the KC game.
Tebow should get credit for winning the Steelers game.
Tebow wasn't to blame for last night against NE.
Just my opinion......but Denver's defense was not good down the stretch, and running a high school style offense isn't going to reap big points (except against the Steelers! )
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Injuries are always difficult to project. But when a player has played more than one season and has yet to prove he can play a full season the threat of injury is very real and the risk involved is great. I would say Stafford's potential for injury going into this season equates to Tebow's potential to be benched next season.
Until Stafford proved he could stay healthy for a full season he came with risk. Until Tebow shows he can last a full season he comes with risk. The reasons for risk are different but the risk level itself is very similar in my opinion.
Results are all that matters in fantasy football. At the end of the day, how we reach those results is basically meaningless when evaluating a player's performance for that season. If Tim Tebow gets benched at halftime of Week 1 and rarely plays the rest of the season it will be the same thing as Matthew Stafford getting hurt in the first half of Week 1 in 2010 and rarely playing again the rest of that season.
So yes, Matthew Stafford was a risky QB1 option who paid off for anyone who drafted him there this season. He was a much safer QB2 option due to his upside. I'd put Tebow in the same category for 2012. Risky QB1 option but safe QB2 due to his upside. Stafford was far less risky....his backup Shaun Hilll had already proven to put up qb 1 numbers in that offense last year...I drafted Stafford as my QB1 knowing I could just stash Shaun Hill and would be solid at QB even if Stafford got injured again. Can u really say Tebow is in the same category...that if he got benched u'd feel good that a brady quinn could succeed in an option offense tailor made for tebow or even regular offense in denver knowing john fox is a conservative run the ball type coach? Sorry, but I think this is a terrible comparison...
Injuries are always difficult to project. But when a player has played more than one season and has yet to prove he can play a full season the threat of injury is very real and the risk involved is great. I would say Stafford's potential for injury going into this season equates to Tebow's potential to be benched next season.
Until Stafford proved he could stay healthy for a full season he came with risk. Until Tebow shows he can last a full season he comes with risk. The reasons for risk are different but the risk level itself is very similar in my opinion.
Results are all that matters in fantasy football. At the end of the day, how we reach those results is basically meaningless when evaluating a player's performance for that season. If Tim Tebow gets benched at halftime of Week 1 and rarely plays the rest of the season it will be the same thing as Matthew Stafford getting hurt in the first half of Week 1 in 2010 and rarely playing again the rest of that season.
So yes, Matthew Stafford was a risky QB1 option who paid off for anyone who drafted him there this season. He was a much safer QB2 option due to his upside. I'd put Tebow in the same category for 2012. Risky QB1 option but safe QB2 due to his upside. Stafford was far less risky....his backup Shaun Hilll had already proven to put up qb 1 numbers in that offense last year...I drafted Stafford as my QB1 knowing I could just stash Shaun Hill and would be solid at QB even if Stafford got injured again. Can u really say Tebow is in the same category...that if he got benched u'd feel good that a brady quinn could succeed in an option offense tailor made for tebow or even regular offense in denver knowing john fox is a conservative run the ball type coach? Sorry, but I think this is a terrible comparison...
- Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30172
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by TR:
Can u really say Tebow is in the same category...that if he got benched u'd feel good that a brady quinn could succeed I've already answered that by saying no to Quinn. I've also said in the unlikely event I draft Tebow as my QB1 next season I'll have to reach earlier for my QB2 as protection than I would otherwise prefer. That's part of the deal in assuming the risk were I so inclined to do so. But again, in an ideal world I'd get Tebow as a QB2 to pair with a strong QB1. That way if he did get benched, I'd still have the strong QB1 and losing Tebow wouldn't hurt me.
Can u really say Tebow is in the same category...that if he got benched u'd feel good that a brady quinn could succeed I've already answered that by saying no to Quinn. I've also said in the unlikely event I draft Tebow as my QB1 next season I'll have to reach earlier for my QB2 as protection than I would otherwise prefer. That's part of the deal in assuming the risk were I so inclined to do so. But again, in an ideal world I'd get Tebow as a QB2 to pair with a strong QB1. That way if he did get benched, I'd still have the strong QB1 and losing Tebow wouldn't hurt me.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Looks right to me. :rolleyes: Same Bronco offense yesterday that so many celebrated for dominating the "#1 ranked defense" just last week. Tebow didn't get his sixth pass completion until after Brady tallied his sixth TD pass. [/QUOTE
Why do I bother? Going back to enjoying my kids. I showed my face as a Tebow supporter all year. I needed to show up and make my point. Obviously you have nothing better to do than to twist things in your favor. All Tebow has is upside.... He has shown you his worst and he still brought his team of no names to the playoffs and a playoff win. I will take it for his first full season. Upside low end QB1 next year.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Looks right to me. :rolleyes: Same Bronco offense yesterday that so many celebrated for dominating the "#1 ranked defense" just last week. Tebow didn't get his sixth pass completion until after Brady tallied his sixth TD pass. [/QUOTE
Why do I bother? Going back to enjoying my kids. I showed my face as a Tebow supporter all year. I needed to show up and make my point. Obviously you have nothing better to do than to twist things in your favor. All Tebow has is upside.... He has shown you his worst and he still brought his team of no names to the playoffs and a playoff win. I will take it for his first full season. Upside low end QB1 next year.
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Just going back a few games.....
Tebow wasn't the reason they lost to New England the first time.
Tebow should DEFINITELY take the blame for the Buffalo game.
Tebow DEFINITELY lost the KC game.
Tebow should get credit for winning the Steelers game.
Tebow wasn't to blame for last night against NE.
Just my opinion......but Denver's defense was not good down the stretch, and running a high school style offense isn't going to reap big points (except against the Steelers! ) [/QUOTE]Looking back, I would agree with this... but Tebow is never the only reason his team has won or lost any games this season. Never said that. He is the leader of that team and obviously is a main reason why. But, to say he is the only reason they won or lost would be wrong. If I said that in any of my statements in the past, it was not intended. He had a lot of help last week in their win.. Later guys
[ January 15, 2012, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]
quote:Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Just going back a few games.....
Tebow wasn't the reason they lost to New England the first time.
Tebow should DEFINITELY take the blame for the Buffalo game.
Tebow DEFINITELY lost the KC game.
Tebow should get credit for winning the Steelers game.
Tebow wasn't to blame for last night against NE.
Just my opinion......but Denver's defense was not good down the stretch, and running a high school style offense isn't going to reap big points (except against the Steelers! ) [/QUOTE]Looking back, I would agree with this... but Tebow is never the only reason his team has won or lost any games this season. Never said that. He is the leader of that team and obviously is a main reason why. But, to say he is the only reason they won or lost would be wrong. If I said that in any of my statements in the past, it was not intended. He had a lot of help last week in their win.. Later guys
[ January 15, 2012, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I should also clarify that the primary reason why I referred to Stafford as a QB2 was because I didn't want to wait on QBs this season so I was typically drafting my starter much earlier than where Stafford was going. So if I was going to get Stafford, it would've been as a QB2 and he was going much earlier than I wanted to address that spot on my roster.
In most of my drafts, when other people were taking Stafford I was going after Jimmy Graham. I can live with that. No way u would have got Jimmy Graham where Stafford was goin in my league...Graham went in 5th rd of my league and that is where I targeted him...Stafford was going in 7th or later.
I should also clarify that the primary reason why I referred to Stafford as a QB2 was because I didn't want to wait on QBs this season so I was typically drafting my starter much earlier than where Stafford was going. So if I was going to get Stafford, it would've been as a QB2 and he was going much earlier than I wanted to address that spot on my roster.
In most of my drafts, when other people were taking Stafford I was going after Jimmy Graham. I can live with that. No way u would have got Jimmy Graham where Stafford was goin in my league...Graham went in 5th rd of my league and that is where I targeted him...Stafford was going in 7th or later.
- Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30172
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by TR:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I should also clarify that the primary reason why I referred to Stafford as a QB2 was because I didn't want to wait on QBs this season so I was typically drafting my starter much earlier than where Stafford was going. So if I was going to get Stafford, it would've been as a QB2 and he was going much earlier than I wanted to address that spot on my roster.
In most of my drafts, when other people were taking Stafford I was going after Jimmy Graham. I can live with that. No way u would have got Jimmy Graham where Stafford was goin in my league...Graham went in 5th rd of my league and that is where I targeted him...Stafford was going in 7th or later. [/QUOTE]Both had similar ADPs in the NFFC. Stafford's was 76.61 in the Classic and 79.88 in the Primetime. Graham's was 73.35/70.84. Both went in the same round in my top league's draft as well. I already had my QB1 so I didn't give Stafford any consideration since I didn't want to take a QB2 at that point. So I went with Graham.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I should also clarify that the primary reason why I referred to Stafford as a QB2 was because I didn't want to wait on QBs this season so I was typically drafting my starter much earlier than where Stafford was going. So if I was going to get Stafford, it would've been as a QB2 and he was going much earlier than I wanted to address that spot on my roster.
In most of my drafts, when other people were taking Stafford I was going after Jimmy Graham. I can live with that. No way u would have got Jimmy Graham where Stafford was goin in my league...Graham went in 5th rd of my league and that is where I targeted him...Stafford was going in 7th or later. [/QUOTE]Both had similar ADPs in the NFFC. Stafford's was 76.61 in the Classic and 79.88 in the Primetime. Graham's was 73.35/70.84. Both went in the same round in my top league's draft as well. I already had my QB1 so I didn't give Stafford any consideration since I didn't want to take a QB2 at that point. So I went with Graham.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
- CoMoHusker
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:00 pm
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Originally posted by Al R G:
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Looks right to me. :rolleyes: Same Bronco offense yesterday that so many celebrated for dominating the "#1 ranked defense" just last week. Tebow didn't get his sixth pass completion until after Brady tallied his sixth TD pass. [/QUOTE
Why do I bother? Going back to enjoying my kids. I showed my face as a Tebow supporter all year. I needed to show up and make my point. Obviously you have nothing better to do than to twist things in your favor. All Tebow has is upside.... He has shown you his worst and he still brought his team of no names to the playoffs and a playoff win. I will take it for his first full season. Upside low end QB1 next year. [/QUOTE]No need to twist things in my favor. Yesterday's passing effort is much more in line with what Tebow has put up all year. The 10 completions for 316 yards last week were a fluke and something that Tebow or the Steelers are unlikely to ever experience again.
The Broncos as a whole played poorly yesterday but to remove Tebow from any accountability in that poor effort is ludicrous. For all we know, he was checking to the wrong plays at the line that resulted in some of those negative plays, all while not being able to produce many points against an extremely marginal defense.
quote:Originally posted by CoMoHusker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sandman62:
Just to make sure I understand the formula:
- All Denver victories are due to Tebow.
- All Denver losses are everyone else's fault.
Gotcha! Looks right to me. :rolleyes: Same Bronco offense yesterday that so many celebrated for dominating the "#1 ranked defense" just last week. Tebow didn't get his sixth pass completion until after Brady tallied his sixth TD pass. [/QUOTE
Why do I bother? Going back to enjoying my kids. I showed my face as a Tebow supporter all year. I needed to show up and make my point. Obviously you have nothing better to do than to twist things in your favor. All Tebow has is upside.... He has shown you his worst and he still brought his team of no names to the playoffs and a playoff win. I will take it for his first full season. Upside low end QB1 next year. [/QUOTE]No need to twist things in my favor. Yesterday's passing effort is much more in line with what Tebow has put up all year. The 10 completions for 316 yards last week were a fluke and something that Tebow or the Steelers are unlikely to ever experience again.
The Broncos as a whole played poorly yesterday but to remove Tebow from any accountability in that poor effort is ludicrous. For all we know, he was checking to the wrong plays at the line that resulted in some of those negative plays, all while not being able to produce many points against an extremely marginal defense.
Go Big Red!
Tim Tebow - Let's Talk
Interesting article on CBS Sports. Emphasis added by me.
Brady, Patriots put emphatic end to Tebow hype (for now)
Sunday January 15, 2012 - 1:57 AM
By Mike Freeman | CBSSports.com National NFL Insider
FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- The Tim Tebow phenomenon died tonight.
It died painfully, in the wind-chilled air of Gillette Stadium. It was a miserable and ugly finish to a season of hope, hysteria and promise. Last week, after beating the Steelers, Tebow was the toast of pop culture. This time, on the backend of a 45-10 beatdown of the Broncos, he was just toast.
The best defensive mind in the history of football, Bill Belichick, despite possessing the worst defense in the sport, deconstructed Tebow like the quarterback was a pasta dish on Top Chef. Who knows what will happen to Tebow next season. That's not important for the moment. What is important is right now and how this was bad. This was as bad as it gets.
One small indicator of what the Patriots did to Tebow comes out of this little statistic. Tebow had three pass completions in the first half. Tom Brady tossed five touchdown passes in the first half, the most in NFL postseason history. Repeating: that's five touchdown passes to three completions.
The reason the Patriots were able to do to Tebow what the Steelers -- owners of the best defense in football -- could not last week smarter strategy. The Patriots basically ignored Tebow as a run threat in the option plays and on passing downs rushed with discipline, limiting escape routes for Tebow and mixing their coverages to confuse. You could almost see Tebow straining to think.
Against Pittsburgh, and as he has done much of the season, Tebow's reads were uber-simplified. But the single-read-and-done approach can be dangerous, and against a smart mind like Belichick it can be lethal. As the Patriots piled on points the stress applied to Tebow's shoulders grew until his back broke.
It is true Tebow wasn't helped much and he can't be solely blamed for what will be one of the worst playoff losses in the history of the Broncos. There were moments when, literally, Denver's defense was afraid to tackle 265-pound tight end Rob Gronkowski. I mean, flat-out scared. And the Broncos secondary couldn't cover a beached whale.
As a result of Denver's total collapsing in on itself, the Patriots assembled a slew of offensive marks. They scored more points than the Sacramento Kings. But that's the story for this coming week as the Patriots are now the clear favorites to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl. The story for now -- for right now -- is Tebow.
"The run was a lot of fun," Tebow said of the year. "A lot of ups and downs but we really try to block everything on the outside off and just enjoy the relationships with teammates and coaches, and work and try to get better. And I feel like we did that all year. We just didn't put together a good enough performance tonight."
In the end, he proved a great many people both wrong and right. His doubters, like me, didn't believe Tebow could win a single NFL game, let alone reach the divisional round of the playoffs. Yet Tebow also showed his main weakness -- throwing the football -- can at times be impossible for Denver's offense to overcome. It's difficult for a quarterback to win consistently if he can't throw and damn near impossible to beat the Patriots.
Tebow completed just 9 of 26 pass attempts for 136 yards. Those aren't isolated numbers for him. He's had statistics like that before. The Broncos can cover Tebow's weakness in spots or even in longer stretches, but it can't consistently be done in the playoffs.
In the end, Tebow was more Saturday Night Live than Saturday night special.
Watching the juxtaposition of the two throwers was remarkable. Brady tossed one interception but otherwise was flawless, his throwing motion perfect, his aim locked. Tebow again had difficulty reading defenses and when he couldn't run, his poise disintegrated. The biggest reason Tebow was sacked five times is because he held onto the football too long.
Towards the end of the game Brady punted on third down (there was a brawl between Patriots and Broncos players after it). It was a beautiful kick. A tighter spiral than almost all of Tebow's throws on the evening.
Yes, the Tebow phenomenon is dead. For now.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1687 ... pe-for-now
Brady, Patriots put emphatic end to Tebow hype (for now)
Sunday January 15, 2012 - 1:57 AM
By Mike Freeman | CBSSports.com National NFL Insider
FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- The Tim Tebow phenomenon died tonight.
It died painfully, in the wind-chilled air of Gillette Stadium. It was a miserable and ugly finish to a season of hope, hysteria and promise. Last week, after beating the Steelers, Tebow was the toast of pop culture. This time, on the backend of a 45-10 beatdown of the Broncos, he was just toast.
The best defensive mind in the history of football, Bill Belichick, despite possessing the worst defense in the sport, deconstructed Tebow like the quarterback was a pasta dish on Top Chef. Who knows what will happen to Tebow next season. That's not important for the moment. What is important is right now and how this was bad. This was as bad as it gets.
One small indicator of what the Patriots did to Tebow comes out of this little statistic. Tebow had three pass completions in the first half. Tom Brady tossed five touchdown passes in the first half, the most in NFL postseason history. Repeating: that's five touchdown passes to three completions.
The reason the Patriots were able to do to Tebow what the Steelers -- owners of the best defense in football -- could not last week smarter strategy. The Patriots basically ignored Tebow as a run threat in the option plays and on passing downs rushed with discipline, limiting escape routes for Tebow and mixing their coverages to confuse. You could almost see Tebow straining to think.
Against Pittsburgh, and as he has done much of the season, Tebow's reads were uber-simplified. But the single-read-and-done approach can be dangerous, and against a smart mind like Belichick it can be lethal. As the Patriots piled on points the stress applied to Tebow's shoulders grew until his back broke.
It is true Tebow wasn't helped much and he can't be solely blamed for what will be one of the worst playoff losses in the history of the Broncos. There were moments when, literally, Denver's defense was afraid to tackle 265-pound tight end Rob Gronkowski. I mean, flat-out scared. And the Broncos secondary couldn't cover a beached whale.
As a result of Denver's total collapsing in on itself, the Patriots assembled a slew of offensive marks. They scored more points than the Sacramento Kings. But that's the story for this coming week as the Patriots are now the clear favorites to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl. The story for now -- for right now -- is Tebow.
"The run was a lot of fun," Tebow said of the year. "A lot of ups and downs but we really try to block everything on the outside off and just enjoy the relationships with teammates and coaches, and work and try to get better. And I feel like we did that all year. We just didn't put together a good enough performance tonight."
In the end, he proved a great many people both wrong and right. His doubters, like me, didn't believe Tebow could win a single NFL game, let alone reach the divisional round of the playoffs. Yet Tebow also showed his main weakness -- throwing the football -- can at times be impossible for Denver's offense to overcome. It's difficult for a quarterback to win consistently if he can't throw and damn near impossible to beat the Patriots.
Tebow completed just 9 of 26 pass attempts for 136 yards. Those aren't isolated numbers for him. He's had statistics like that before. The Broncos can cover Tebow's weakness in spots or even in longer stretches, but it can't consistently be done in the playoffs.
In the end, Tebow was more Saturday Night Live than Saturday night special.
Watching the juxtaposition of the two throwers was remarkable. Brady tossed one interception but otherwise was flawless, his throwing motion perfect, his aim locked. Tebow again had difficulty reading defenses and when he couldn't run, his poise disintegrated. The biggest reason Tebow was sacked five times is because he held onto the football too long.
Towards the end of the game Brady punted on third down (there was a brawl between Patriots and Broncos players after it). It was a beautiful kick. A tighter spiral than almost all of Tebow's throws on the evening.
Yes, the Tebow phenomenon is dead. For now.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1687 ... pe-for-now