FFOC Investigation

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Leroy's Aces:
So....what's new in the high stakes world?

BTW, I met KJ Duke in person a last week in Las Vegas and we got along very well. Nice guy. Dave, this is an odd thread to call up to say hi to KJ Duke!!

Anyway, I'm glad you came to our Interactive Sports Conference in Las Vegas last week and it was good to talk with you for a bit. I'm also glad you got to meet KJ, Rick Thomas and some of our other baseball die-hards.

I do see on your boards that you are stating that FFOC hasn't paid all of their prize money yet. And that since Fanball ran the back end for FFOC, that somehow that ties Fanball into the mix. As I stated in my email to you, I am not involved in any of those discussions nor do I know much of anything involving FFOC and Fanball. That was before my time there and I know their discussions for 2010 just began in March when I was working in St. Louis. I'm not sure what the plan is for 2010.

But let's be smart about our posts involving FFOC and the NFBC and NFFC. I think most people know that I criticized the FFOC when they reduced their overall prizes in Year One and I have often wondered if that business plan was sustainable. It still might be and they may still return in 2010, I don't know. But either way, the FFOC has no effect on the NFBC making payments on time or the NFFC guaranteeing prize money just because Fanball ran the back-end.

I am curious about the upcoming 2010 season for FFOC, FFPC, WCOFF, NFFC and others. It's a wild side of the industry that I don't see in baseball, outside of one wild business plan that just took place. I'm totally with you: I want every winner from 2009 to have their money in their hands by now and if it's not, then we all should get involved. Nothing is more important to this area of the business than owners getting their guaranteed prize money paid in a timely fashion. NONE OF US can afford another situation where fantasy players lose the prize money they should be awarded.

I'll gladly start a new thread on this subject if I learn more about the situation, but right now I don't know any more than you do. But I'm not thinking the worst at this point, either. Let's hope it all works out for those players and for our industry.

[Leroy's Aces]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by Leroy's Aces:
So....what's new in the high stakes world?

BTW, I met KJ Duke in person a last week in Las Vegas and we got along very well. Nice guy. Dave, this is an odd thread to call up to say hi to KJ Duke!!

Anyway, I'm glad you came to our Interactive Sports Conference in Las Vegas last week and it was good to talk with you for a bit. I'm also glad you got to meet KJ, Rick Thomas and some of our other baseball die-hards.

I do see on your boards that you are stating that FFOC hasn't paid all of their prize money yet. And that since Fanball ran the back end for FFOC, that somehow that ties Fanball into the mix. As I stated in my email to you, I am not involved in any of those discussions nor do I know much of anything involving FFOC and Fanball. That was before my time there and I know their discussions for 2010 just began in March when I was working in St. Louis. I'm not sure what the plan is for 2010.

But let's be smart about our posts involving FFOC and the NFBC and NFFC. I think most people know that I criticized the FFOC when they reduced their overall prizes in Year One and I have often wondered if that business plan was sustainable. It still might be and they may still return in 2010, I don't know. But either way, the FFOC has no effect on the NFBC making payments on time or the NFFC guaranteeing prize money just because Fanball ran the back-end.

I am curious about the upcoming 2010 season for FFOC, FFPC, WCOFF, NFFC and others. It's a wild side of the industry that I don't see in baseball, outside of one wild business plan that just took place. I'm totally with you: I want every winner from 2009 to have their money in their hands by now and if it's not, then we all should get involved. Nothing is more important to this area of the business than owners getting their guaranteed prize money paid in a timely fashion. NONE OF US can afford another situation where fantasy players lose the prize money they should be awarded.

I'll gladly start a new thread on this subject if I learn more about the situation, but right now I don't know any more than you do. But I'm not thinking the worst at this point, either. Let's hope it all works out for those players and for our industry. [/QUOTE]Hi Greg! This was actually a pretty fun thread to re-read this AM.

That is funny: "one wild baseball plan that took place"

I was only re-posting what their customers are stating on their message boards, so I do not know with certainty what the situation is with FFOC. I am fully aware of what is going on with AFFL though (again). I asked about it on the FBG boards, to see if anyone else has an answer, since FFOC doesn't even post on their own boards. And they don't have a legit excuse like baseball. My posts over there only ask about whether or not Fanball got paid for their backend work before FFOC started paying out players.

I am curious though. In year one, FFOC claimed they escrowed their grand prize, so I always wondered:

a. did they escrow their other prizes?

and now

b. did they escrow anything at all this year?

I would love to hear the answer to that one, not that you would know, of course. I would also hope that Fanball would have gotten some sort of financial guarantee from FFOC ownership prior to agreeing to do the backend work, especially given the huge losses incurred in year one, but I don't know how those types of deals work. To quote this very thread, I am just part owner of "a small-time contest started by message board antagonists with misplaced egos."

Their site only says "powered by Fanball" on it, and is far removed from NFFC/NFBC. I did defend NFBC as safe to play and secure and I, of course, enjoy playing in the NFFC and the Primetime. Even with no baseball skill whatsoever, I would have also played your baseball event if you were paying out 200% like those "other" guys. Well, that's assuming that they are able to...well, forget it. My draft partners enjoyed the experience, so we will probably hop into the "majors" event next year in baseball.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I hope you weren't in the 6 1/2 hour nightmare draft on Friday night over at the other hotel!! I know you would have gone crazy in that one. Play with the pros next year and join the NFBC at the Bellagio!! We'll do the ISC and then the NFBC with the NCAA Viewing Party at the Bellagio inbetween.

I don't know anything about the FFOC payouts or payments to Fanball. I'm in a different division and wasn't part of Fanball until late August!! I know I never gave ownership to STATS to power my game and I doubt you did with MyFantasyLeague, too, right? I always heard they had deep pockets and could afford to take the loss to build market share.

Let's all hope it's just a delay. I honestly haven't read any football talk since January, so I'm the last person to ask. Hopefully most of the folks are getting paid and all will be good there. Neither of us want something bad to happen in this space again.

What's up with AFFL.com? I don't know anything there. Did folks get paid there this year? Again, I'm out of the loop on that one. Thanks man.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Never mind, I just read the AFFL thread on our boards. Yikes. Even late payments aren't a good sign, folks. It's not very hard to take in revenue, hold it for five months and then pay it out in a timely fashion. That's not too difficult, but everyone seems to be struggling with that plan these days. Ouch.

Okay, I'm starting to get up to speed on the football side again. It's kind of fun. I'll be back in full force next week along with Tom. TK needs time off on Monday and Tuesday and then I'm taking a few days off, but we'll be here for good starting next week. See ya on the boards.

[Glenneration X]

Just an FYI....

I called Fanball yesterday & spoke to their lead accountant. She told me that the vast majority of payouts have been made, over 80%. She also said that she was absolutely confident that all remaining cash payments would be made.

As far as next year's contest and the free leagues due league champions, she said no definitive direction has been determined as Fanball is still waiting for final decisions and information from Stan and Stomp to Sports.

She did verify that Fanball merely ran the contests for the FFOC and was not an owner, but is obviously concerned because of the association.

I will say that as far as I know, Fanball has always paid out all its own prizes for the over a decade they've been around. It's a shame that they're being associated in this potential mess when they've always been personally 100% reliable in payments.

Glenn

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Glenneration X:
Just an FYI....

I called Fanball yesterday & spoke to their lead accountant. She told me that the vast majority of payouts have been made, over 80%. She also said that she was absolutely confident that all remaining cash payments would be made.

As far as next year's contest and the free entries due league champions, she said no definitive direction has been determined as Fanball is still waiting for final decisions and information from Stan and Stomp to Sports.

She did verify that Fanball merely ran the contests for the FFOC and was not an owner, but is obviously concerned because of the association.

I will say that as far as I know, Fanball has always paid out all its own prizes for the over a decade they've been around. It's a shame that they're being associated in this potential mess when they've always been personally 100% reliable in payments.

Glenn Glenn, Dave Gerczak emailed me this post this morning and I told him I'd address this on our boards first when I come up for air from baseball. I told him he can post my response on the FFPC boards as well. I am talking with Dave on this constantly via email and Dave's heart is in the right place: That of the players. As game operators, we both hope that every fantasy player gets awarded their prize money from FFOC, AFFL and every other contest that promised prizes last year.

Even though Fanball owns the NFFC now after acquiring us in August, I do not know the workings of FFOC at all. I'll do all I can to find out more this week and see what is going on.

The person you must have talked with yesterday was Carol, a founding member of CDM Fantasy Sports who is the head of accounting. She would know more about this than me. If she said most people have been paid then she would know. Obviously any late payment is not good for the industry, but hopefully all cash winners will get paid and then FFOC can explain what their plans are for 2010. I'm not sure if final plans have been made for FFOC in 2010 or not. I'm not involved in that area of the business, but I'll try to get some info if possible.

I believe league champions won free entries for 2010, is that correct? Is that where the concern lies right now or just the lack of information on the FFOC boards? I haven't followed this closely enough, but let me know that part. I mean, we've been quiet over here at the NFFC too and have every intention of coming back in 2010. Maybe Stan just hasn't decided on a plan yet after unveiling the $10 contest last year. I don't know.

I'll find out more. But right now I need to get 2,850+ baseball teams locked and loaded tonight. BASEBALL WAS A HUGE SUCCESS!!! But I'll return to football soon. Hope this helps for the short-term and I'll find out more info soon and start a new thread for all to see. Sound good?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Dave, I didn't sign up for your boards yet; my wife is preparing Easter dinner and killing me for posting at all right now!! : But I'll copy and paste this response you put on your boards and answer:

From Dave:
I thought Fanball was this HUGE company. Why aren't they making the payments for this contest? They should be covering the prizes. They ran the contest. It is THEIR job to pay out prizes. And well before April 4th.

If MyFantasyLeague.com ran our contest, don't you think that they would have access to the funds to pay out the contest that they are running?

This is nonsense.

From Greg:
I'm not sure how prizes were paid in the past for FFOC, but I'll try to find out. Seems like Papa John's or whoever owned that contest should have paid the prizes. Didn't Stan's group have to pay this out and guarantee the prizes?

Again, Carol makes it sound like most have been paid and the rest will be. I'm not sure why there's late payments, but let's hope all is addressed soon. Fanball has paid out over $40 million since 1992 and the NFFC or NFBC or NFBBC has never missed a payment to a winner. Claiming that Fanball should cover FFOC's payments for running the back-end seems odd, but I don't know how that worked before.

I better learn this part of the company soon. Accusations are flying and I'm uninformed. I sure hope this all works out. Nobody -- okay, maybe you Dave -- has argued about this more since the 1990s than me. It's the reason we first started the Fantasy Sports Trade Association in 1999, to protect the players after the Replica Corporation went under and didn't pay prizes. Charlie Wiegert, myself and 10 other industry leaders formed the FSTA for this main reason. And we thought we had it under control until this crap started happening with AFFL.com, Fantasy Jungle, AFFL.com 2, and hopefully not this. Time to support the players again.

Thanks Dave. I'll stay on top of this.

[Leroy's Aces]

Thanks Greg (and Ryan) for addressing this head-on, even though you guys are far removed from it.

The reason this kind of blew up a little bit is that their boards have no one on them at all to even discuss the issues.

Once people start saying that Fanball said FFOC did not pay them AND other people are asking for money without response AND no one responds on the board...well, people jump to their own conclusions.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Leroy's Aces:
Thanks Greg (and Ryan) for addressing this head-on, even though you guys are far removed from it.

The reason this kind of blew up a little bit is that their boards have no one on them at all to even discuss the issues.

Once people start saying that Fanball said FFOC did not pay them AND other people are asking for money without response AND no one responds on the board...well, people jump to their own conclusions. Dave, thanks for the civil post here. As you know, I've been looking into this today and emailing you the facts as I found them. Ryan emailed you too from Florida. You wanted to post all of our emails on your boards and we asked you not to do that as we were still looking into getting all of the facts. Thanks for understanding that.

As I stated, it looks like people have been paid by the FFOC. I think there is around $30,000 or so in unpaid winners. I'm not sure what that situation is, but I'll see if I can get answers. It seems like an amount that could be any number of things involving the winners, but we'll find out. It sure looks like the top winners have been paid.

Now there is some concern with the people who won league prizes, which are free entries into the 2010 contest. But that concern is because their message boards are inactive. I have no idea what Stan is planning for 2010, but if they return then all should be good. Ask Stan if he's coming back.

You stated that $1 million in free entries were owed, and as I told you, it's a fraction of that. Not even close to $1 million. So let's correct that. The winner does have $700,000 in deferred winnings through FFOC, but I don't even know what the payout plan was for that. Again, Fanball ran the back-end; they didn't create the plan or finance it. They ran the back-end.

I'll gladly post more as I find out details. I am totally removed from this; hell, I have my hands full with NFBC and NFFC. Alex wants to implicate the NFFC for the FFOC not fully paying yet and I hate to say it but FFOC was a competitor of mine just like they were of FFPC. I'm not sure why I'm being thrown into the mess, but it sure does rally the troops around the cause!!

Stay in touch. We play in each other's games. We want what is best for the players. I've been in this industry longer than you and Alex and helped form the FSTA when Replica Corporation was one of a handful of companies that screwed the players out of prize money. We fought for the players then and somehow that has been lost with the trade organizations. But we can't afford anymore AFFL's or Fantasy Jungles and that's something we can agree on wholeheartedly. I agree we need to stay on top of this, but it's FFOC that can answer all of this, not NFFC.

[Leroy's Aces]

The million was more of a guess, not really a statement. I did revise it on our boards for accuracy though.

Thanks for the post, I will post it over there for accuracy sake.