Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[qb] If you don't think defenses would score enough without the special teams contributions, then you could simply weight the defensive scoring more heavily. I think that makes more sense than having the Saints so called defense have value because of Reggie Bush, when their defense, in fact, is atrocious. Well, on Draft Day you are drafting the Saints' special teams/Defense, so you are drafting Bush as a special teams player. It's part of that strategy as well. But again, you and I are talking about something different than what was originally proposed by Turbough, which is giving Bush and the Saints 6 points for one TD. My point is one or the other should get those points and I'm all for the discussion on whether Bush or New Orleans should get those points as long as both don't get 6. [/QUOTE]I agree with you there. Only one or the other should receive the points. And under the current settings linking the DEF and special teams, I agree it has to be rewarded to this imaginary unit, instead of Bush. However, this setup is clearly flawed not only because of this argument, but because it makes no football sense. Any chance of changing the setup next year to separate defense and special teams or eliminating special teams altogether? The concept makes no sense any more except for the argument that people are used to it. And frankly, that's not good enough of an argument.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
I again agree we keep it as is.
I picked up the NY Jets D a few weeks back because of their soft matchups AND because of their return game, as Leon Washington is going to break one THIS WEEKEND!!!!
As a side note, when you draft a TEAM, it is listed as DST. Yes, the Saints defense is weak, but with Reggie Bush, it makes a few people think of their SPECIAL TEAMS (return game), where they otherwise would want nothing to do with them.
I picked up the NY Jets D a few weeks back because of their soft matchups AND because of their return game, as Leon Washington is going to break one THIS WEEKEND!!!!
As a side note, when you draft a TEAM, it is listed as DST. Yes, the Saints defense is weak, but with Reggie Bush, it makes a few people think of their SPECIAL TEAMS (return game), where they otherwise would want nothing to do with them.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Originally posted by jdoggmms:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[qb] If you don't think defenses would score enough without the special teams contributions, then you could simply weight the defensive scoring more heavily. I think that makes more sense than having the Saints so called defense have value because of Reggie Bush, when their defense, in fact, is atrocious. Well, on Draft Day you are drafting the Saints' special teams/Defense, so you are drafting Bush as a special teams player. It's part of that strategy as well. But again, you and I are talking about something different than what was originally proposed by Turbough, which is giving Bush and the Saints 6 points for one TD. My point is one or the other should get those points and I'm all for the discussion on whether Bush or New Orleans should get those points as long as both don't get 6. [/QUOTE]I agree with you there. Only one or the other should receive the points. And under the current settings linking the DEF and special teams, I agree it has to be rewarded to this imaginary unit, instead of Bush. However, this setup is clearly flawed not only because of this argument, but because it makes no football sense. Any chance of changing the setup next year to separate defense and special teams or eliminating special teams altogether? The concept makes no sense any more except for the argument that people are used to it. And frankly, that's not good enough of an argument. [/QUOTE]Why would you want to eliminate special teams all together?????
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by jdoggmms:
[qb] If you don't think defenses would score enough without the special teams contributions, then you could simply weight the defensive scoring more heavily. I think that makes more sense than having the Saints so called defense have value because of Reggie Bush, when their defense, in fact, is atrocious. Well, on Draft Day you are drafting the Saints' special teams/Defense, so you are drafting Bush as a special teams player. It's part of that strategy as well. But again, you and I are talking about something different than what was originally proposed by Turbough, which is giving Bush and the Saints 6 points for one TD. My point is one or the other should get those points and I'm all for the discussion on whether Bush or New Orleans should get those points as long as both don't get 6. [/QUOTE]I agree with you there. Only one or the other should receive the points. And under the current settings linking the DEF and special teams, I agree it has to be rewarded to this imaginary unit, instead of Bush. However, this setup is clearly flawed not only because of this argument, but because it makes no football sense. Any chance of changing the setup next year to separate defense and special teams or eliminating special teams altogether? The concept makes no sense any more except for the argument that people are used to it. And frankly, that's not good enough of an argument. [/QUOTE]Why would you want to eliminate special teams all together?????
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36414
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Right now the top 14 Defenses/ST are averaging between 14 and 9 points per game. It seems like a fair account of their values to fantasy owners. Splitting them wouldn't make a lot of sense or add to the value of the game. I think the argument is keeping the two units combined or doing just defensive team points and then allowing special teams points to only go to individual players.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
If you eliminated special teams, who would be rewarded if the punter threw a pass that was intercepted and returned for a TD???
After all, it is 4th down and does it really matter who threw the ball??? Some would argue that ONLY the special teams would get it (because it was a "punt" formation and the special teams were on the field), and some would argue that it was ONLY the defense, as it wasn't a return or block.
I can only imagine the complaints if someone won or lost because of the verdict on this type of play!
Having defense and special teams TOGETHER makes it easy, as there won't be any complaining either way in the above scenario.
After all, it is 4th down and does it really matter who threw the ball??? Some would argue that ONLY the special teams would get it (because it was a "punt" formation and the special teams were on the field), and some would argue that it was ONLY the defense, as it wasn't a return or block.
I can only imagine the complaints if someone won or lost because of the verdict on this type of play!
Having defense and special teams TOGETHER makes it easy, as there won't be any complaining either way in the above scenario.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Originally posted by BillyWaz:
I again agree we keep it as is.
I picked up the NY Jets D a few weeks back because of their soft matchups AND because of their return game, as Leon Washington is going to break one THIS WEEKEND!!!!
As a side note, when you draft a TEAM, it is listed as DST. Yes, the Saints defense is weak, but with Reggie Bush, it makes a few people think of their SPECIAL TEAMS (return game), where they otherwise would want nothing to do with them. That's fine. They are linked together so obviously, you consider everything when making pickups. The question is more for the future. Why do we link Defense and special teams when they have nothing to do with each other in real life? It's stupid. Fantasy sports are designed to mimic the effect of what happens on the field as closely as possible. Greg already answered why the two separate units are linked from the old touchdown heavy scoring systems. Well, guess what? That doesn't apply anymore. And for good reason. And that goes for a lot of the other changes that have slowly taken place. The fact is, the original format of the game didn't accurately reflect the impact of players on the field. And that's why defense and special teams shouldn't be linked going forward. Because that's just not football. why do we create an imaginary entity where a defense is worth more because of a fast wide receiver or running back? It's just plain retarded.
I again agree we keep it as is.
I picked up the NY Jets D a few weeks back because of their soft matchups AND because of their return game, as Leon Washington is going to break one THIS WEEKEND!!!!
As a side note, when you draft a TEAM, it is listed as DST. Yes, the Saints defense is weak, but with Reggie Bush, it makes a few people think of their SPECIAL TEAMS (return game), where they otherwise would want nothing to do with them. That's fine. They are linked together so obviously, you consider everything when making pickups. The question is more for the future. Why do we link Defense and special teams when they have nothing to do with each other in real life? It's stupid. Fantasy sports are designed to mimic the effect of what happens on the field as closely as possible. Greg already answered why the two separate units are linked from the old touchdown heavy scoring systems. Well, guess what? That doesn't apply anymore. And for good reason. And that goes for a lot of the other changes that have slowly taken place. The fact is, the original format of the game didn't accurately reflect the impact of players on the field. And that's why defense and special teams shouldn't be linked going forward. Because that's just not football. why do we create an imaginary entity where a defense is worth more because of a fast wide receiver or running back? It's just plain retarded.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
If thats the case, then why should my DEFENSE get penalized when the offense throws an interception for a TD or a RB fumbles and the other teams defense picks it up and takes it to the house? Not all things in fantasy football equate,but I still like it as is.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Originally posted by kapefear:
If thats the case, then why should my DEFENSE get penalized when the offense throws an interception for a TD or a RB fumbles and the other teams defense picks it up and takes it to the house? Not all things in fantasy football equate,but I still like it as is. I totally agree. There's no reason a defense should be penalized for those points. But you would rather just accept it because that's how things are now and you assume it's too difficult to adjust for? Anything can be fixed and should be for the integrity of the game. That's how the fantasy game improves. Not with the "it is what it is" attitude.
If thats the case, then why should my DEFENSE get penalized when the offense throws an interception for a TD or a RB fumbles and the other teams defense picks it up and takes it to the house? Not all things in fantasy football equate,but I still like it as is. I totally agree. There's no reason a defense should be penalized for those points. But you would rather just accept it because that's how things are now and you assume it's too difficult to adjust for? Anything can be fixed and should be for the integrity of the game. That's how the fantasy game improves. Not with the "it is what it is" attitude.
Player should get credit for any scoring!!!
Some really interesting points brought up here and I'm glad that this is being discussed and not argued about.
I've never thought about separating ST and Defense but it is an interesting thought.
I do have one more stupid question. If the field goal/punt units are on the field, do individual players still get credit is are they considered ST? Just an honest question.
I've never thought about separating ST and Defense but it is an interesting thought.
I do have one more stupid question. If the field goal/punt units are on the field, do individual players still get credit is are they considered ST? Just an honest question.