LT...finished?

[Gordon Gekko II]

Originally posted by Renman:
Gekko,

Your thought that the Chargers went with LT because he was feeding them a "line of BS" is what I would say is more the fans way of looking at things. These are expert NFL player evaluators. I assure you they factor into their decisions much more than what the players are telling them. OBviously he is on the backside of his career. But I do not believe that suddenly and magically at 30 all RB have to die immediately like Alexander did.

Let me ask something. If LT retired tomorrow. Do you really think Sproles would be the feather back for SD next year? I would bet anything the answer would be no. So I doubt they see him as someone who can handle the workload.

Through all this friendly debate... no one has addressed the facts I presented earlier. LT had his ankle rolled up on by a monster and it could have happened to ANY RB in the NFL. He also has seen his offensive line get crippled with injuries.. something that also could happen to any RB in the NFL and has nothing to do with age.

I hope they keep LT out past the bye. I just think, as Doughboys said, the typical fan view point is to judge some poor performances and snap judge the talent of said player as opposed to looking at the bigger picture. There is no way the Chargers would have handed the keys to this WIN NOW team to LT if they did not believe he was up to the task.

Winning in the NFL is way too important to pacify egos of big name players. ren - i'm going to go out on a limb here and ask if you are an LT owner. your posts read like you are. i apologize if you aren't (or are for that matter ).

sure, EVERY NFL franchise wants to WIN. every team has "expert" talent evaluators. these people have never been known to make mistakes...cough...Ryan Leaf...cough...tony mandarich...cough...s.alexander at year 30...cough...brett favre beginning a few years ago...dan marino the last four years of his career...cough...the list is endless...

tomlinson's #'s the past three years...
2006 31 td's, 5.2 avg yards per rush
2007 18 td's, 4.7 avg yards per rush
2008 12 td's, 3.8 avg yards per rush
2009 Preseason 0 td's, 2.3 avg yards per rush

if tomlinson is healthy (BIG IF), he can still put up rb2 type numbers. however, people drafting him in the first round probably bought him thinking he can finish top 5 overall this year.

[ September 26, 2009, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko II ]

[renman]

gekko,

I am and LT owner in 2 of my 6 leagues. But would say the exact same things if we had this discussion 4 weeks ago. Word for word. My posts read like someone who doesn't believe the guy was finished prior to this season more than someone who owns him now. Had someone taken him before me and I didn't own him I would be saying the same exact thing.

I never said expert talent evaluators never make mistakes. I am saying they know more than you know. They have more information to base decisions on than fans have. You talk about LT like we are talking about tecmo bowl and we are dealing with a bunch of never changing constants.

Many things contribute to the productivity level of NFL players. Jay Cutler went from being a top 5 QB to being outside the top 10 on many lists during this offseason. Did he suddenly get worse? His circumstance changed.

You continue to ignore the accurate point that I made regarding to the REAL reason LT's production is down now. His ankle was rolled up on in an awkward way and his offensive line has taken on major injury. Something that could happen to anyone in the NFL.

If LT was through 3 games and had not been rolled up on.. and was repeatedy unproductive (and who knows, that could very well have happened) than you would be right on the money with your analysis. If he was pulling groins and hammy's and getting nicked up here and there.. you would be right on the money... But no one can say they were right about LT being finished when what is causing the lack of production could have happened to any RB at any age on any team.

I respect your opinion, I hope you respect mine.

[ September 26, 2009, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Renman ]

[Gordon Gekko II]

Originally posted by Renman:
You continue to ignore the accurate point that I made regarding to the REAL reason LT's production is down now. His ankle was rolled up on in an awkward way and his offensive line has taken on major injury. Something that could happen to anyone in the NFL.
and i'm sure that is what he told the chargers brass this offseason.

Chargers Brass: LT, we are trying to win the Super Bowl this coming year. Our expert talent evaluators indicated that your production was down last year, and you were invisible come playoff time. We are thinking of signing or drafting a RB to take your place.

LT: Listen, I was hampered by injuries last year, but this offseason, I'm feeling the "best of my career". I will be the LT of old in 2009. Watch and see.

Chargers Brass: That's good enough for us. We will spell you a little bit more with Sproles, to help you stay effective all year.

LT: No problem.

[Gordon Gekko II]

Originally posted by Renman:
You continue to ignore the accurate point that I made regarding to the REAL reason LT's production is down now. His ankle was rolled up on in an awkward way and his offensive line has taken on major injury. Something that could happen to anyone in the NFL.
i'm not sure what u want me to say, other than maybe LT was too old/slow to get out the way.

[renman]

gekko,

If you think the above discussion is how NFL talent evaluators and front office executives do business, with major decisions that can define the results of an entire franchise, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. I honestly think Doughboys point about how a fan views this applies a lot more to your way of evaluating this than mine and that isn't a bad thing.

I was expecting the "maybe he was too slow to get out of the way" reply a few posts ago because it is really the only response someone could give to my point. Which easily leads me to ask how many lightening fast young RB's and even WR's have had players roll up on their ankle in such a fashion. I believe the great AP was dinged up in similar ways several times in his young career.

I respect anyones opinion that LT has slowed dramatically to the point this year he wasn't worthy of a top pick or even 1st round pick. But to use what happened in week one and also what happened to his offensive line as evidence someone was right, to me, is totally off base and classic monday morning quarterbacking. Had he played healthy through the first month and produced poorly.. or had he started having wear and tear type injuries... I would be the first person to say "hey, your evaluation was right on the money..."

[Gordon Gekko II]

Originally posted by Renman:
gekko,

If you think the above discussion is how NFL talent evaluators and front office executives do business, with major decisions that can define the results of an entire franchise, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. I honestly think Doughboys point about how a fan views this applies a lot more to your way of evaluating this than mine and that isn't a bad thing.
The facts...
1. LT was hampered by injuries last year
2. LT was invisible in the playofs last year
3. LT proclaimed himself as going to have a great year this year (just like he did last year)

If you don't think LT told the Chargers that injuries are the reason for his letdown last year and that he is 'finally' healthy coming into this season, you are fooling yourself. anyone with a brain would have told the chargers that. self-preservation is #1 in 99% of people's mind, esp when you are a Legend (playing past his prime).

Chargers bought (for the most part) what LT was shoveling IMO. They did sign Michael Bennett in the offseason so they may have hedged their bets a little.

Here's hoping he has something left in the tank for you and fellow owners later this season. If he could just stay healthy, he'd put up some decent points in that offense.

[Gordon Gekko II]

i also hated westbrook this year. didn't get him on any team, just like LT.

[renman]

Gekko,

This is likely my last post on the topic because I have no interest in going back and forth on this if you are not going to even acknowledge the points I am making. We all know LT had injuries last year. Last I checked NFL players often get injuries. So I am not sure why LT having a few is big news or makes him any different from anyone else.

I am sure LT told the Chargers injuries were a big part of downturn in production last year. You know why? Because injuries were a big part of the downturn in production last year for him where he dropped all the way to 7th in RB production. I am not sure why you would say he is "finally" healthy since he has had a history of being very healthy his entire career and has not been a regularly injured player (like AP who was drafted #1).

My point is that if you think the Chargers player evaluation experts and coaches, who all have careers on the line, who have a WIN NOW team in a weak division, make their decisions based on what players tell them, I think you are nuts. They use miles of game film, medical records, hours and hours of practice analysis and film, OTA's, mini-camp, and the pre season.

You think the chargers bought what LT was "shoveling." To me that is how the fan sees things. Unless LT said something like "hey, guys, I guarantee you there is no chance my ankle can get twisted sideways by a down lineman while I take a shovel pass (worst conceived play in NFL history by the way)and I can't see the players around me" then I would agree he was shoveling something. Signing Michael Bennett is the same as saying "we are as sure as ever that our current star RB is just fine."

Westbrook had a history of injuries, LT did not. And I have no problem with someone not wanting LT at all. I just think patting ourselves on the back as if we somehow made the right call on LT based on a down lineman rolling up on his ankle, his guard and tackle getting dinged up, and his star center blowing out his ankle and needing surgury that may end his season, is classic monday morning quarterbacking. I assume you predicted the broken ribs Hasselback and McNabb got too? Is Randy Moss done due to the back spasms that seem to be creeping up again?

I stand by my points from previous posts that if LT had come up with pulled groins and hammy's and was breaking down in ways that had nothing to do with typical standard NFL injuries that come from contact, I would be first to say you were right and I was wrong. But we can't say "hey, I was right about LT! Look what happened!" When what happened could have happened to any RB on any team of any age.

As I said last time. I hope you respect my opinion. I think it is a fair one to have.

[ September 26, 2009, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]

[Gordon Gekko II]

Originally posted by Renman:
My point is that if you think the Chargers player evaluation experts and coaches, who all have careers on the line, who have a WIN NOW team in a weak division, make their decisions based on what players tell them, I think you are nuts. They use miles of game film, medical records, hours and hours of practice analysis and film, OTA's, mini-camp, and the pre season.
they certainly factor in what LT tells them. you ARE nuts if you don't think they do!!!

yes, you are entitled to your opinion and i respect that. good luck with LT.

[renman]

gekko,

Of course they listen to LT. I think what LT tells them is 8th on the list of factors that determine if they are going to roll with this guy at RB when their careers and the fortunes of the entire franchise ride on such decisions.

My bigger point, is that the injury LT got, is a fluke unpredictable injury that has zero to do with age or breaking down.

Could have happened to anyone... and will happen to others... including those under the age of 26.