poor sports

[Greg Ambrosius]

By setting a precedent that we should rescind every waiver pickup we'd be saying that every pickup was wrong. Maybe some of these pickups will outscore his regulars.

IMO, you'd be saying "We're not going to tolerate obvious sabotage and that, whether some of the pickups improved his team or not, he forfeited all rights to managing his team once he obviously committed sabotage against the league and the NFFC in general".

To me, that's a whole lot different than your commendable desire to not manage people's teams for them. When they've obviously completely given up on managing their team, I really don't think you're still obligated to attempt to avoid crossing that line ("managing people's teams").

Thanks for the feedback everyone. We'll meet on this again tomorrow and talk this through. Several good points have been made here.

[Money]

Lets try to look at the positive here. Lets be thankful that this didn't happen in a national overall contest. It stinks where it did happen but the NFFC will take something from it and evaluate this situation moving forward for possible changes to their approach.

There have been issues in the past in baseball and football that draw out passion. Lets not go overboard in the criticism here. While this sucks I think given the circumstances it's small potatoes, with the exception of those participating in that particular league.

Lets let cooler heads prevail and quit giving this guy the satisfaction for creating this controversy.

[BLACKHAND]

i will never play in a league with Nick DeRuiter either. also i would put up entry fee to anyone who screws this guy in any league he is in. thats how pissed i am that this guy can make a joke of a league and not even say he is sorry. i have a long memory. now he has a bounty on his head. how much fun is that.

[Coltsfan]

Wow! I just read this entire thread. It sounds like it's been beat to death but this just honestly makes me mad. I hope that this isn't allowed to happen. It's a terrible precedent and it could affect a future league much more so than it might be this one. My thoughts:

1. This is not bad play - this is sabotage! Put the players back on his team that he dropped.

2. There is no excuse!!! NONE!!! Don't take up for this loser by saying he's having a tough season. That's makes me want to puke. This is all about intent and we know what his intent was.

3. Understand that whatever you do here will be a precedent for the next time it happens. You can't shrug this off because it may not have a huge impact on this league.

4. Don't let this guy play next year. Take control of your contest and make it clear people can't disrespect you, the NFFC, and it's players like this.

I honestly think that I"m just about as mad at the response as I was what this guy did. I hope you take into account what will happen next time as well and not just look at how it affects this particular league.


Wayne

[BillyWaz]

I'll say it again......we saw what one guy tried to do personally to Greg and Tom and to this contest last year and were guaranteed he wouldn't be back (and he of course is). Nothing is going to change here, as this is 1/1000 the problem that was.

[Coach JP]

I'll say it again......we saw what one guy tried to do personally to Greg and Tom and to this contest last year and were guaranteed he wouldn't be back (and he of course is). Nothing is going to change here, as this is 1/1000 the problem that was.

Well now I'm curious about these juicy details as a paying customer.

[KenGill]

In the grand scheme he really isn't having too much of an affect on anything, its a $150 team and his team plays 3 other teams not competing for any money. I'm actually more concerned with the ongoing problem, year after year, of people simply quitting on their teams, and leaving injured and bye week players in the starting lineup.

Let's face it guys, this was a no win situation for the guys running the NFFC and it looks like something will have to be written into the rules next year to prevent an entire team from being dropped. I would suggest that next year's rules say: "There is a maximum of 4 players per team who can be dropped, per week". That, along with what NFFC is already doing in witholding the top players from re-entering the free agent pool, ought to prevent this from happening again.

[Sandman62]

First of all, I now see that Nick apologized on the league board, after the ramifications of his actions were pointed out:

You are all correct, the moves I made could affect the outcome in some way with the administrator being unable to remove all of my dropped players. Perhaps Pittsburg's defense or Jay Cutler or someone else I dropped might make a difference for someone's team. And I'm not being sarcastic here, anyone who's played fantasy for a while has seen a league come down to just a couple of points before. There are some players I dropped that could help put another team's lineup over the top if it's a close finish, and I should have realized this before blowing up my team out of frustration. It was a poor decision made in haste and for the wrong reasons, and I apologize to everyone in this league for acting rashly and not using better judgement. I wish everyone luck from here on out, and I sincerely hope the winners of this league are able to achieve victory through their own merits, and not because someone else was cheated as a result of my actions.
Nick DeRuiter

Good for him for not letting his frustration continue to cloud his judgment and having the ability to admit his mistake, even if it did take getting clobbered over the head to do so.

In the grand scheme he really isn't having too much of an affect on anything, its a $150 team and his team plays 3 other teams not competing for any money.

The amount of money shouldn't matter. A precedent will be set by this and in the future, if the money is much greater, it will be amplified.

... something will have to be written into the rules next year to prevent an entire team from being dropped.

Something already is:

24. Code of Conduct
All participants and co-managers are expected to behave in lawful, respectful and sportsman-like fashion at all live draft events, throughout the NFFC season, and during use of any NFFC website, including, but not limited to comments posted on any NFFC message board. Additionally the NFFC events, games and/or leagues may not be used for any form of gambling. Any conduct or message board post by a participant, co-manager or other person which is deemed by STATS, in its sole discretion, to be unlawful, or to have the effect of intimidating, harassing, offending or otherwise harming any other participant, co-manager, guest, or NFFC/STATS representative, is strictly prohibited. STATS reserves the right, in its sole discretion to ban any person from current and/or future participation in the NFFC and/or from use of the message boards if such person engages in any such prohibited conduct or is otherwise in violation of any of these Rules. In addition, any person engaging in such conduct forfeits any rights to a refund, as well as any potential rights to a prize award. STATS shall not be responsible or held liable to any person for damage to property or personal injury or death arising from the acts or omissions of any third parties. Any participants or co-managers who collude, or attempt to collude, or who attempts to blackmail, bribe or otherwise influence any representative of STATS/NFFC, or who otherwise attempts to sabotage the league, in an effort to alter the results or outcome of any NFFC game will be disqualified and will be prohibited from winning any prize award. If a participant is banned from participation in a current NFFC game, then STATS reserves the right, to take those actions which it sees fit, in its sole discretion with respect to such banned participant’s team. Any criminal behavior may be referred to the appropriate authorities.

Clearly, this was an attempt to sabotage the league and alter the outcome of games. At that point, I don't think Greg and Tom can be accused of "managing someone's team"; they are now simply following their rules, disqualifying someone, and undoing all of the sabotage actions. They are less apt to being considered "managing someone's team" if they simply declare "sabotage" and undo ALL actions, whereas picking and choosing which players they think are important enough to remove from the waiver pool is obviously based on their subjective player value, leaving them more open to falling into the very mode they've always admirably avoided.

This begs the next question: "What if someone doesn't DROP their entire team (or enough of them to be deemed sabotage), but instead simply benches many or all of their usual starters?". I think the ruling can simply be made based on perceived "intent". In Greg and Tom's estimation, was the intent to "alter the results or outcome of any NFFC game" or were they simply "managing their team". And given that barometer, which is already built into the rules, I trust Greg and Tom's integrity to be able to distinguish between these on a case by case basis.

Another question, though irrelevant in this case because his remaining opponents aren't likely to challenge for a playoff spot, is "What if his remaining opponents DID have a chance at the playoffs? Would the NFFC have to step in in that case and manage his team"? If they don't, then the saboteur would get away with exactly what they set out to (alter game outcomes). Though I agree with not managing teams when they simply quit and stop setting optimum lineups, I do think that once an owner has been DISQUALIFIED, it could be necessary for the NFFC to take over some minimal amount of management of that team. Something to think about to further clarify this section of the rules.

[Greg Ambrosius]

First of all, I now see that Nick apologized on the league board, after the ramifications of his actions were pointed out:

You are all correct, the moves I made could affect the outcome in some way with the administrator being unable to remove all of my dropped players. Perhaps Pittsburg's defense or Jay Cutler or someone else I dropped might make a difference for someone's team. And I'm not being sarcastic here, anyone who's played fantasy for a while has seen a league come down to just a couple of points before. There are some players I dropped that could help put another team's lineup over the top if it's a close finish, and I should have realized this before blowing up my team out of frustration. It was a poor decision made in haste and for the wrong reasons, and I apologize to everyone in this league for acting rashly and not using better judgement. I wish everyone luck from here on out, and I sincerely hope the winners of this league are able to achieve victory through their own merits, and not because someone else was cheated as a result of my actions.
Nick DeRuiter

Good for him for not letting his frustration continue to cloud his judgment and having the ability to admit his mistake, even if it did take getting clobbered over the head to do so.

In the grand scheme he really isn't having too much of an affect on anything, its a $150 team and his team plays 3 other teams not competing for any money.

The amount of money shouldn't matter. A precedent will be set by this and in the future, if the money is much greater, it will be amplified.

... something will have to be written into the rules next year to prevent an entire team from being dropped.

Something already is:

24. Code of Conduct
All participants and co-managers are expected to behave in lawful, respectful and sportsman-like fashion at all live draft events, throughout the NFFC season, and during use of any NFFC website, including, but not limited to comments posted on any NFFC message board. Additionally the NFFC events, games and/or leagues may not be used for any form of gambling. Any conduct or message board post by a participant, co-manager or other person which is deemed by STATS, in its sole discretion, to be unlawful, or to have the effect of intimidating, harassing, offending or otherwise harming any other participant, co-manager, guest, or NFFC/STATS representative, is strictly prohibited. STATS reserves the right, in its sole discretion to ban any person from current and/or future participation in the NFFC and/or from use of the message boards if such person engages in any such prohibited conduct or is otherwise in violation of any of these Rules. In addition, any person engaging in such conduct forfeits any rights to a refund, as well as any potential rights to a prize award. STATS shall not be responsible or held liable to any person for damage to property or personal injury or death arising from the acts or omissions of any third parties. Any participants or co-managers who collude, or attempt to collude, or who attempts to blackmail, bribe or otherwise influence any representative of STATS/NFFC, or who otherwise attempts to sabotage the league, in an effort to alter the results or outcome of any NFFC game will be disqualified and will be prohibited from winning any prize award. If a participant is banned from participation in a current NFFC game, then STATS reserves the right, to take those actions which it sees fit, in its sole discretion with respect to such banned participant’s team. Any criminal behavior may be referred to the appropriate authorities.

Clearly, this was an attempt to sabotage the league and alter the outcome of games. At that point, I don't think Greg and Tom can be accused of "managing someone's team"; they are now simply following their rules, disqualifying someone, and undoing all of the sabotage actions. They are less apt to being considered "managing someone's team" if they simply declare "sabotage" and undo ALL actions, whereas picking and choosing which players they think are important enough to remove from the waiver pool is obviously based on their subjective player value, leaving them more open to falling into the very mode they've always admirably avoided.

This begs the next question: "What if someone doesn't DROP their entire team (or enough of them to be deemed sabotage), but instead simply benches many or all of their usual starters?". I think the ruling can simply be made based on perceived "intent". In Greg and Tom's estimation, was the intent to "alter the results or outcome of any NFFC game" or were they simply "managing their team". And given that barometer, which is already built into the rules, I trust Greg and Tom's integrity to be able to distinguish between these on a case by case basis.

Another question, though irrelevant in this case because his remaining opponents aren't likely to challenge for a playoff spot, is "What if his remaining opponents DID have a chance at the playoffs? Would the NFFC have to step in in that case and manage his team"? If they don't, then the saboteur would get away with exactly what they set out to (alter game outcomes). Though I agree with not managing teams when they simply quit and stop setting optimum lineups, I do think that once an owner has been DISQUALIFIED, it could be necessary for the NFFC to take over some minimal amount of management of that team. Something to think about to further clarify this section of the rules.

All good points Mike and as I said to you last night I have slept on this and we will address this today. We locked out those 7 players in free agency for next week. We have time today to make a call here for Week 11. He had no players among all 40 playing last night and no players are on bye. We also learned something about this situation recently that helps us here. So we've lost nothing in the 24 hours since our decision. We'll make the right call today and move on.

There's great passion for the NFFC here and we appreciate all of the points. Nobody wants to see an owner stick a middle finger to the NFFC or the passion of any single league. We quickly locked out the top free agents and after learning more will make a call in time to do the right thing for Week 11. Thanks again for the feedback.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I'll say it again......we saw what one guy tried to do personally to Greg and Tom and to this contest last year and were guaranteed he wouldn't be back (and he of course is). Nothing is going to change here, as this is 1/1000 the problem that was.

Billy, you just never quit.

Bwaz vs. Snake for 7 years on our Message Boards. And the other owner just runs his teams and doesn't cause any problems, yet there you are again.