Our Decision On Owner Cutting Entire NFFC Team

[got heeem]

as a first year guy what is the hardest part of playing here ? iyo is it the faab bidding . good players . draft . my son did a team and finds the faab the hardest . would like to know your opinion lunger .

With all due respect, please start a separate thread for this so that this important thread can remain on topic. Thank you.

sandman i started the first thread for this .i just asked one man a question .what about all this snake crap ?

[Sandman62]

And I asked him to stay on topic too:

Snake, please slither back under whatever rock you've been under and leave this thread for the topic at hand. I'd hate to see it locked because you took it on a personal tangent.

Nothing personal. Just waiting to see if the undroppable players concerns will be addressed and don't want any tangents to derail that. Thanks for understanding.

[bockman1]

This has and probably will continue to happen in every contest every year in one form or another. Unfortunately there are people who when things do not go their way want to retaliate and make everyone else suffer and try to turn people against one another. No one decision would have satisfied everyone but they did the best they could and what they thought was right and I can accept that. I would agree that the one person responsible should be banned for a period of time. Again this comes up every year in every contest in one form or another and has to be handled on an individual basis because the circumstances are always differert and the decisions made will not make everyone happy. Do not get mad and let the party responsible think he has accomplished his goal of pissing people off and screwing things up.

[RedRyder]

If Donny G is SNAKE -- and it sure looks like it by that post -- then I look dumber than Mike thinks I do by my decision here. I trusted him NOT TO POST AT ALL this year. Dumbass me. Donny G will be blocked if it's him and we will continue to block any other attempts for him to post again. He has been allowed to JUST PLAY.

People want me to kick players out of the NFFC. I understand why after what happened in the Diamond League last year. But I did trust someone -- someone who is a multiple league champ and has earned his chops in our game -- to not post at all. I guess my trust was broken again.

I don't want this thread to get turned to another subject and that's what I said to Billy in a private message. I'm willing to discuss the actions of our drops decision, not have an important thread hijacked by something else. Let's move past the slithering and stay on topic.

I didn't know Donny G = Snake either, but then I have stayed away from the boards this year.

Greg, I think you are missing the reason why the Snake business from previous years (Last year's ban and then un-ban wasn't his first), folks WERE responding to your handling of the disruptive owner and using past precedent to do so. Not past precedent of an incident of this nature per se, but an example of another disruptive owner.

[Ry's Guys]

I'm more concerned about disruptive players, past and present, that are allowed to come back and given the opportunity to do more damage. Also, BWaz should not in any way be lumped in with the guy from last season who made relentless offensive posts in the Diamond League against your best customers and the NFFC. Billy (among others) got sucked into a no-win argument with him and nothing else, and I doubt anyone here has a shred of contempt for him which is as opposite as can be from youknowwho.

I agree with this post 100%. I've been a player in the NFFC for six years now and I love it and almost everything about it! While I don't always agree with Greg and Tom, they are always here to answer questions and make decisions they feel are in the best interest of the NFFC and its' players. I respect the fact that they make decisions and explain the reasoning for these decisions. I think this sometimes leaves them open for criticism more than other game operators.

That being said there have been three instances where I believe there have been decisions that were detrimental to the NFFC. All three of these have to do with the behavior of players and the lack of discipline that was handed down. I'll be as brief as I can in my explanation of the circumstances...

1. 2009 live draft in Chicago. This was when there was one Classic draft time and one Primetime draft time. So you could only have 1 team in each main event. I was in both drafts and the first draft started with 3 guys that were totally out of control. Loud, obnoxious and inebriated. The first team took Andre Johnson first overall, this strategy was unheard of back then. These guys were so abusive to the guy he actually moved from his spot at the draft table and moved next to the 14th pick drafter. This continued throughout the draft. The more people asked them to be quiet the louder they got. The draft took a very long time and I left with a headache (and a first place team partly because they drafted 6 RB's in the first seven rounds I believe).
The Primetime draft was a couple hours later so I got there early and explained to the guys running it to please keep an eye on our draft because these guys were in my earlier draft and basically ruined the draft. Second draft starts and the same crap happened. We stopped the draft multiple times to complain to the folks running it. It was a terrible experience. Imagine you go to a live draft spend about 3K on 2 drafts and have a terrible experience. That's what happened for 24 drafters that day. Several people sent emails to Greg regarding the terrible behavior at the draft by these three clowns. My email to Greg was mainly to tell him my concerns about how this would affect his customers from plunking down that kind of money and then being abused and/or leaving with a migraine. After a couple days Greg ruled that the guys were good guys and good customers (sound familiar?) and they apologized so it was over. It was the last time I drafted in Chicago and I live here! I believe It was also the last time the NFFC has had more than 2 leagues in Chicago. Coincidence?

2. The issue with Snake last year and for many years before that. As several people have explained in this thread he was very offensive and abusive on the message board. Greg kicked him off the boards so he went onto the league message boards of the leagues he was a member and abused more people including Greg and the NFFC. I was one of at least a handful of people that were promised Snake would not be welcome back this year. Now he's lauded for just managing his teams?!? The explanation we get is he is a really good player, so I guess it doesn't matter how he treats anyone. Bad precedent!

3. This mess with the guy dropping his entire team and picking up a bunch of Jags. He's never done anything like this in the past and he's a good customer. Another bad precedent!

All three of these things are/were terrible for the NFFC and its future. This is what troubles me. I love the NFFC and don't want it to get a bad rep or have rogue owners screwing up leagues or most importantly tying up prize winnings in litigation.

My point to this whole post is not too trash the NFFC. I think there should be an independent disciplinarian for the NFFC players. Not someone with ties to the players like Greg and Tom. In my opinion they do EVERYTHING else top notch. It's tough to do this to a paying customer but it must be done to protect the other paying customers. Discipline is difficult. Just ask Roger Goodell.

[HOF]

I'm more concerned about disruptive players, past and present, that are allowed to come back and given the opportunity to do more damage. Also, BWaz should not in any way be lumped in with the guy from last season who made relentless offensive posts in the Diamond League against your best customers and the NFFC. Billy (among others) got sucked into a no-win argument with him and nothing else, and I doubt anyone here has a shred of contempt for him which is as opposite as can be from youknowwho.

I agree with this post 100%. I've been a player in the NFFC for six years now and I love it and almost everything about it! While I don't always agree with Greg and Tom, they are always here to answer questions and make decisions they feel are in the best interest of the NFFC and its' players. I respect the fact that they make decisions and explain the reasoning for these decisions. I think this sometimes leaves them open for criticism more than other game operators.

That being said there have been three instances where I believe there have been decisions that were detrimental to the NFFC. All three of these have to do with the behavior of players and the lack of discipline that was handed down. I'll be as brief as I can in my explanation of the circumstances...

1. 2009 live draft in Chicago. This was when there was one Classic draft time and one Primetime draft time. So you could only have 1 team in each main event. I was in both drafts and the first draft started with 3 guys that were totally out of control. Loud, obnoxious and inebriated. The first team took Andre Johnson first overall, this strategy was unheard of back then. These guys were so abusive to the guy he actually moved from his spot at the draft table and moved next to the 14th pick drafter. This continued throughout the draft. The more people asked them to be quiet the louder they got. The draft took a very long time and I left with a headache (and a first place team partly because they drafted 6 RB's in the first seven rounds I believe).
The Primetime draft was a couple hours later so I got there early and explained to the guys running it to please keep an eye on our draft because these guys were in my earlier draft and basically ruined the draft. Second draft starts and the same crap happened. We stopped the draft multiple times to complain to the folks running it. It was a terrible experience. Imagine you go to a live draft spend about 3K on 2 drafts and have a terrible experience. That's what happened for 24 drafters that day. Several people sent emails to Greg regarding the terrible behavior at the draft by these three clowns. My email to Greg was mainly to tell him my concerns about how this would affect his customers from plunking down that kind of money and then being abused and/or leaving with a migraine. After a couple days Greg ruled that the guys were good guys and good customers (sound familiar?) and they apologized so it was over. It was the last time I drafted in Chicago and I live here! I believe It was also the last time the NFFC has had more than 2 leagues in Chicago. Coincidence?

2. The issue with Snake last year and for many years before that. As several people have explained in this thread he was very offensive and abusive on the message board. Greg kicked him off the boards so he went onto the league message boards of the leagues he was a member and abused more people including Greg and the NFFC. I was one of at least a handful of people that were promised Snake would not be welcome back this year. Now he's lauded for just managing his teams?!? The explanation we get is he is a really good player, so I guess it doesn't matter how he treats anyone. Bad precedent!

3. This mess with the guy dropping his entire team and picking up a bunch of Jags. He's never done anything like this in the past and he's a good customer. Another bad precedent!

All three of these things are/were terrible for the NFFC and its future. This is what troubles me. I love the NFFC and don't want it to get a bad rep or have rogue owners screwing up leagues or most importantly tying up prize winnings in litigation.

My point to this whole post is not too trash the NFFC. I think there should be an independent disciplinarian for the NFFC players. Not someone with ties to the players like Greg and Tom. In my opinion they do EVERYTHING else top notch. It's tough to do this to a paying customer but it must be done to protect the other paying customers. Discipline is difficult. Just ask Roger Goodell.

Hard to argue with anything you have said here. I have thought about doing a live draft here in Chicago several times but always decide not to because i would hate to be THAT GUY that screws it up somehow.

[Max Factor]

I have pretty much stayed off the message board this year. This subject requires a response. I play in 8-10 NFFC leagues every year including the Classic and Primetime, so I consider myself a GOOD customer. The thing I hate most about some leagues is the fact that you inevitably come upon some quitters. I am resigned to the fact that there is no solution for them.

This situation is much different IMHO. You have someone here who is intentionally sabotaging the INTEGRITY of the entire NFFC. You cannot damage NFFC's integrity (good or new customer) without consequences. There can be no question in anyones mind that this owner was looking to be disruptive and controversial. Mission accomplished.

The solution for me is easy. Banned for life from participating. Reverse the entire transaction and give control of starting lineup to administrator for the balance of the year.

Jeff

[Sandman62]

First of all, now that it's Sunday and a lot more traffic will likely be on the boards, if you just clicked your way into this thread via the "most recent" button, I strongly suggest that that you go back to the beginning and read the entire thread, and maybe even the one that spawned this decision thread (http://nffcforums.stats.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11436). This affects ALL NFFC customers, not just the ones in this [apparently unimportant] $150 Satellite league, as precedents are being set that may very well affect more expensive leagues in the future.

And the reason I continue to discuss this important issue is because even Greg has admitted that the simple thing, in hindsight, would've been to simply undo all 20 transactions. WHAT hindsight? Waivers don't run again until next Wed. night. So there's still time until then to reverse their original decision. How much evidence must be provided and how many TRUE "good customers" have to chime in before that occurs?

The solution for me is easy. Banned for life from participating. Reverse the entire transaction and give control of starting lineup to administrator for the balance of the year.

Jeff

I agree with the last 2/3 of this. As for the punishment, I don't think a lifetime ban is necessary. But a year off would seem to give him time to fully reflect upon his acts, as well as time to repent. Plus it shows some compassion for someone who evidently has always been a "good customer" (to date). So forgive and forget? After a year off, if he decides to never return to the NFFC, then so be it. Yes, I realize that this is Tom and Greg's livelihood. But they're not the only business to have ever thrown someone out and run the risk of losing a customer. Those are the tough decisions needed when you wish to maintain the integrity of your business and the enjoyment of the rest of your truly "good customers" - which this guy may eventually be [again], but let's not confuse him at this point with the hundreds of NFFC customers who haven't committed, nor will ever, commit such a disrespectful act against their brethren.

I also disagree with the cost of the league having anything to do with the punishment. Or the matter of "How much does it affect the remaining competition?". Yes, the teams HE faces are likely out of it. But the teams who will now pickup his dropped players are NOT. I've already detailed their potential value (http://nffcforums.stats.com/viewtopic.p ... 41#p180537) and I'm almost certain we'll see some of them acquired. But it seems that the decision is to simply sweep it under the rug and hope that it doesn't ultimately affect the outcome of this league. If it does affect it, then I will be even unhappier (whether it affects ME or any of the remaining contenders); and then I'll be forced to decide if I return next year for my 15 NFFC leagues. But this is a risk Tom and Greg appear willing to take - weighing the value of their customers against each other.

What if this happens again and it's in a more expensive league or more directly affects remaining games? Will this not be used as a precedent and a completely different ruling will be reached? If so, then why have the rules state ANY punishment, just say "If you do something we don't like, we will do something you won't like."? If someone in real life murders someone, should it matter how prominent that person is or how old they were (remaining life)? (Yeah, I know that with our wacky, greedy legal system, it often does, but should it?)

As it stands right now though, a precedent is being set that if you are a "lucrative" NFFC customer, there is NO punishment for this, despite how many other truly good customers it affects (and honestly, whether it was him or his brother-in-law really shouldn't make a difference, plus anyone could come up with a story like that). Or would ANY customer (even just a single $150 Satellite one) have been let off free from this?

At the very least, the penalty written in the current rules that "sabotage = disqualification" is obvious useless. Who cares if they're DQ'ed from a league they're out of and tampering with? Either drop the rule altogether, or replace it with "We may or may not do something, based on how afraid we are of losing a lucrative customer (IOW, lesser customers are... "lesser")". Or actually come up with a punishment that fits the crime.

I suggest that the Code of Conduct rule be revised to something like:
"While we are not in the business of regularly making or overruling the roster or lineup decisions of any player who is legitimately still trying to compete, or even one who has obviously given up, when we conclude that a player has committed 'sabotage' against the league, the player will be disqualified from that league, as well as from all NFFC events the following year. Further, ALL of the sabotaging acts will reversed, and the player's team will be restored to its most recent lineup state, from which it will play out the remainder of the season without further intervention from us."
Note: Had there been any competing bids for the 20 dropped players in this case, then it would be necessary to rerun the last FAAB processing (at least for those affected players), using the exact same bids that everyone had already made (and therefore removing the issue of "already knowing the next highest bids"). But in this case, ALL transactions could easily have been reversed. And I'm still completely baffled as to why they'd ever want to open the can of worms they did by doing anything different? Seriously, would ANY owners in this league have had a legitimate complaint had that been done?

BTW, I'm also still waiting for an explanation on how BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Heath Miller are undroppable, but Ronnie Brown (averaging more PPG this year than BJGE) is not??? If it's predraft status (i.e. Tom's always been a vocal fan of BJGE as an RB2), then how the heck is Miller undroppable, seeing he was the 24th TE drafted? If Miller is undroppable more because of his production THIS year, then why is Brown droppable when he's outproducing BJGE THIS year?
[You see what you stepped into by crossing this line instead of just undoing the entire transaction of 20 drops? ]

[CoMoHusker]

Greg

My two-cents would be that if the 20 player drop was fraudulent, the entire 20 players should be reinstated to his roster, not just some. It's difficult to determine or say that he is the only one hurt by this action. What if some of the other players dropped are picked up by other teams with a specific need and are helped? The whole event was bogus and
I would make it whole as it was before the event

This is a tough one and I wouldnt know how to legislate this type of thing . I've already seen funny stuff in leagues , but it happens every year to some extent

I couldn't agree more with Old School. Because there were no competing bids on the 13 players that were picked up, returning all 20 to his roster would remove all "ripple" impacts of the situation. Players like Cutler, Pitt D, and even Janikowski could help other owners and indeed impact the competitive balance of the league. I understand that these same free agents may be available in other leagues but every free agent pool is different based on that particular league. For example, an owner in 2nd or 3rd place could really be in need of a QB and now has the chance to bid on a player like Cutler when previous to the massive drops, only QB's like Sanchez were available.

This was an unfortunate situation and quite honestly, one that Greg and Tom shouldn't have to deal with if owners would just exercise a little integrity and play through the duration of the contest. The justifications given by the particular owner involved were absolutely bogus and no matter how frustrated I become with my team, getting rid of P. Manning in favor of a bum like Sanchez will not help that frustration. I believe these actions should have been resolved with a stiff consequence.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Mike, our decision on which players to freeze in your league's FAAB was totally based on current value and how it would affect FAAB going forward. Heath Miller is still a Top 5 tight end. Yes, we did say we could let the Law Firm back in, but we took the conservative route there and froze him.

Everyone has made solid points. We've read them all. Thanks for the feedback.