Our Decision On Owner Cutting Entire NFFC Team

[Sandman62]

Mike, our decision on which players to freeze in your league's FAAB was totally based on current value and how it would affect FAAB going forward. Heath Miller is still a Top 5 tight end. Yes, we did say we could let the Law Firm back in, but we took the conservative route there and froze him.

Everyone has made solid points. We've read them all. Thanks for the feedback.

Thanks for the clarification Greg. While it seems a bit subjective and inconsistent (BJGE/RBrown), I do appreciate the response.

Given that you've read all the feedback and continue to do so, is there ANY chance that your minds can be changed before the next FAAB runs again next Wed.? I've yet to see anyone provide any strong objection to just undoing this mess as if it never happened.

Do you have any thoughts at this time on my specific suggestions for how to revise the Code of Conduct rule? I suspect that most other NFFC owners who aren't directly affected by the FAAB decision are still very interested in this.

[Sandman62]

Focusing just on how many of the transactions to undo (ignoring the punishment aspect) ...
If Greg and Tom had decided to reverse all 20 of the drops:
• Would anyone have come out here and complained that such a decision was unfair or didn't make sense?
• Would anyone feel that completely erasing a poisonous act upon the league was somehow unfair?
• Would anyone in the specific league not come across selfish to suggest that at least some of the players should be left out in the waiver pool?
• Would anyone suggest that a bad precedent was being set?

And if anyone did, how would this community react?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Mike, sorry, but no the FAAB list is final for that league and folks are already making bids in every league. Mark Sanchez and John Kuhn are no longer available in your league. We're not giving this guy his $500 back in FAAB and folks are bidding accordingly, knowing what everyone has.

Our decisions have been criticized in the past, but we learn more once these leagues play out. I can remember in 2006 or so when we were criticized for allowing Donovan McNabb to be available via FAAB, but not only were we proved right but it had a factor in determining our $100,000 champion. It played out and owners made tough decisions on an iffy player at the time. I do think this league will play out even with the goofiness of this owner.

Of course we can look at the code of conduct rules. We added all of these through our legal department to cover all possibilities. Tom and I still rule with each league's fairness in mind. As you correctly point out, we could easily rule with a blanket covering. We'll look at this and how we attack if it ever happens again. There are far-reaching decisions if you reverse too: a) when you give him the $500 FAAB back, can he keep biddng the rest of the way and just do something similar yet not as drastic? b) do you give him back FAAB and then freeze his future moves, thus taking out $500 from that league's FAAB pool (which is even more unfair)? c) immediately freeze all of his teams, even though we've learned much more about this situation since then, including that someone else was actually running this team?

We can improve the system and improve our decision making, too. We appreciate the time and effort you've put into perfecting that part of our rules. We'll work it out, but again let's play this out and see if maybe it's not the end of the world. The 1-9 owner in most leagues just gives up and we all don't want that. But we don't want this type of move, either, so let's work to be ready for the next time a 1-9 owner gets creative/crazy. Thanks.

[Sandman62]

There are far-reaching decisions if you reverse too: a) when you give him the $500 FAAB back, can he keep biddng the rest of the way and just do something similar yet not as drastic? b) do you give him back FAAB and then freeze his future moves, thus taking out $500 from that league's FAAB pool (which is even more unfair)? c) immediately freeze all of his teams, even though we've learned much more about this situation since then, including that someone else was actually running this team?

Greg, with all due respect, these are all irrelevant. Even the current rule mandates disqualification for sabotage. So it's completely out-of-line to let him make even a single further move in this league - and that goes for waiver claims, setting lineups, posting on the league message board... ANYTHING! Or are you really saying that there's just going to be NO penalty at all? That's nuts! And it makes no difference if it was him or a relative; HE'S accountable for the team!

... let's play this out and see if maybe it's not the end of the world

The problem with a wait-and-see approach is that if it DOES have an impact, it'll be far too late to rectify. You have exactly 3 remaining days to make a decision that avoids that.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I'm more concerned about disruptive players, past and present, that are allowed to come back and given the opportunity to do more damage. Also, BWaz should not in any way be lumped in with the guy from last season who made relentless offensive posts in the Diamond League against your best customers and the NFFC. Billy (among others) got sucked into a no-win argument with him and nothing else, and I doubt anyone here has a shred of contempt for him which is as opposite as can be from youknowwho.

I agree with this post 100%. I've been a player in the NFFC for six years now and I love it and almost everything about it! While I don't always agree with Greg and Tom, they are always here to answer questions and make decisions they feel are in the best interest of the NFFC and its' players. I respect the fact that they make decisions and explain the reasoning for these decisions. I think this sometimes leaves them open for criticism more than other game operators.

That being said there have been three instances where I believe there have been decisions that were detrimental to the NFFC. All three of these have to do with the behavior of players and the lack of discipline that was handed down. I'll be as brief as I can in my explanation of the circumstances...

1. 2009 live draft in Chicago. This was when there was one Classic draft time and one Primetime draft time. So you could only have 1 team in each main event. I was in both drafts and the first draft started with 3 guys that were totally out of control. Loud, obnoxious and inebriated. The first team took Andre Johnson first overall, this strategy was unheard of back then. These guys were so abusive to the guy he actually moved from his spot at the draft table and moved next to the 14th pick drafter. This continued throughout the draft. The more people asked them to be quiet the louder they got. The draft took a very long time and I left with a headache (and a first place team partly because they drafted 6 RB's in the first seven rounds I believe).
The Primetime draft was a couple hours later so I got there early and explained to the guys running it to please keep an eye on our draft because these guys were in my earlier draft and basically ruined the draft. Second draft starts and the same crap happened. We stopped the draft multiple times to complain to the folks running it. It was a terrible experience. Imagine you go to a live draft spend about 3K on 2 drafts and have a terrible experience. That's what happened for 24 drafters that day. Several people sent emails to Greg regarding the terrible behavior at the draft by these three clowns. My email to Greg was mainly to tell him my concerns about how this would affect his customers from plunking down that kind of money and then being abused and/or leaving with a migraine. After a couple days Greg ruled that the guys were good guys and good customers (sound familiar?) and they apologized so it was over. It was the last time I drafted in Chicago and I live here! I believe It was also the last time the NFFC has had more than 2 leagues in Chicago. Coincidence?

2. The issue with Snake last year and for many years before that. As several people have explained in this thread he was very offensive and abusive on the message board. Greg kicked him off the boards so he went onto the league message boards of the leagues he was a member and abused more people including Greg and the NFFC. I was one of at least a handful of people that were promised Snake would not be welcome back this year. Now he's lauded for just managing his teams?!? The explanation we get is he is a really good player, so I guess it doesn't matter how he treats anyone. Bad precedent!

3. This mess with the guy dropping his entire team and picking up a bunch of Jags. He's never done anything like this in the past and he's a good customer. Another bad precedent!

All three of these things are/were terrible for the NFFC and its future. This is what troubles me. I love the NFFC and don't want it to get a bad rep or have rogue owners screwing up leagues or most importantly tying up prize winnings in litigation.

My point to this whole post is not too trash the NFFC. I think there should be an independent disciplinarian for the NFFC players. Not someone with ties to the players like Greg and Tom. In my opinion they do EVERYTHING else top notch. It's tough to do this to a paying customer but it must be done to protect the other paying customers. Discipline is difficult. Just ask Roger Goodell.

I'm not here to dispute Pat, but to just clarify his points:

1) We get it from all sides when people act differently. Chris and his buddies were long-time NFFC players who drafted in Chicago each year and always had "fun". Some felt they went too far this time and his group felt we criticized their behavior too much. We lost them after that season (they have never played again) and apparently some owners who were there also haven't returned, so a few folks affected us because the Fanball facilitators didn't stop them and we were affected when I approached them after the event about this. They thought we were at fault. So nobody won there. As for Chicago, I wish we could blame one instance, but our numbers for baseball and football in the Windy City have gone down every year since 2007 and if they continue we will have to make a tough decision there.

2) Yes, the easy decision would be to kick one owner out of the contest for his conduct.

3) Again, we ruled solely on the merits of this league. Let's see if we ruled improperly or not.

I think our Message Boards are a great place to talk football again. I really hope we don't need a Disciplinarian Council in the NFFC, but if so I'll put you in charge Pat and hopefully Tom and I aren't the first ones to be lynched.

[Sandman62]

3) Again, we ruled solely on the merits of this league. Let's see if we ruled improperly or not.

Whether or not the determination of the playoff teams end up being adversely affected by this should not be the determinant. What I think you really mean is "Let's see if we get lucky". If we do (and I sure hope we do), please don't even think of going down the "See? We told you so" path.

[Ry's Guys]

I'm more concerned about disruptive players, past and present, that are allowed to come back and given the opportunity to do more damage. Also, BWaz should not in any way be lumped in with the guy from last season who made relentless offensive posts in the Diamond League against your best customers and the NFFC. Billy (among others) got sucked into a no-win argument with him and nothing else, and I doubt anyone here has a shred of contempt for him which is as opposite as can be from youknowwho.

I agree with this post 100%. I've been a player in the NFFC for six years now and I love it and almost everything about it! While I don't always agree with Greg and Tom, they are always here to answer questions and make decisions they feel are in the best interest of the NFFC and its' players. I respect the fact that they make decisions and explain the reasoning for these decisions. I think this sometimes leaves them open for criticism more than other game operators.

That being said there have been three instances where I believe there have been decisions that were detrimental to the NFFC. All three of these have to do with the behavior of players and the lack of discipline that was handed down. I'll be as brief as I can in my explanation of the circumstances...

1. 2009 live draft in Chicago. This was when there was one Classic draft time and one Primetime draft time. So you could only have 1 team in each main event. I was in both drafts and the first draft started with 3 guys that were totally out of control. Loud, obnoxious and inebriated. The first team took Andre Johnson first overall, this strategy was unheard of back then. These guys were so abusive to the guy he actually moved from his spot at the draft table and moved next to the 14th pick drafter. This continued throughout the draft. The more people asked them to be quiet the louder they got. The draft took a very long time and I left with a headache (and a first place team partly because they drafted 6 RB's in the first seven rounds I believe).
The Primetime draft was a couple hours later so I got there early and explained to the guys running it to please keep an eye on our draft because these guys were in my earlier draft and basically ruined the draft. Second draft starts and the same crap happened. We stopped the draft multiple times to complain to the folks running it. It was a terrible experience. Imagine you go to a live draft spend about 3K on 2 drafts and have a terrible experience. That's what happened for 24 drafters that day. Several people sent emails to Greg regarding the terrible behavior at the draft by these three clowns. My email to Greg was mainly to tell him my concerns about how this would affect his customers from plunking down that kind of money and then being abused and/or leaving with a migraine. After a couple days Greg ruled that the guys were good guys and good customers (sound familiar?) and they apologized so it was over. It was the last time I drafted in Chicago and I live here! I believe It was also the last time the NFFC has had more than 2 leagues in Chicago. Coincidence?

2. The issue with Snake last year and for many years before that. As several people have explained in this thread he was very offensive and abusive on the message board. Greg kicked him off the boards so he went onto the league message boards of the leagues he was a member and abused more people including Greg and the NFFC. I was one of at least a handful of people that were promised Snake would not be welcome back this year. Now he's lauded for just managing his teams?!? The explanation we get is he is a really good player, so I guess it doesn't matter how he treats anyone. Bad precedent!

3. This mess with the guy dropping his entire team and picking up a bunch of Jags. He's never done anything like this in the past and he's a good customer. Another bad precedent!

All three of these things are/were terrible for the NFFC and its future. This is what troubles me. I love the NFFC and don't want it to get a bad rep or have rogue owners screwing up leagues or most importantly tying up prize winnings in litigation.

My point to this whole post is not too trash the NFFC. I think there should be an independent disciplinarian for the NFFC players. Not someone with ties to the players like Greg and Tom. In my opinion they do EVERYTHING else top notch. It's tough to do this to a paying customer but it must be done to protect the other paying customers. Discipline is difficult. Just ask Roger Goodell.

I'm not here to dispute Pat, but to just clarify his points:

1) We get it from all sides when people act differently. Chris and his buddies were long-time NFFC players who drafted in Chicago each year and always had "fun". Some felt they went too far this time and his group felt we criticized their behavior too much. We lost them after that season (they have never played again) and apparently some owners who were there also haven't returned, so a few folks affected us because the Fanball facilitators didn't stop them and we were affected when I approached them after the event about this. They thought we were at fault. So nobody won there. As for Chicago, I wish we could blame one instance, but our numbers for baseball and football in the Windy City have gone down every year since 2007 and if they continue we will have to make a tough decision there.

2) Yes, the easy decision would be to kick one owner out of the contest for his conduct.

3) Again, we ruled solely on the merits of this league. Let's see if we ruled improperly or not.

I think our Message Boards are a great place to talk football again. I really hope we don't need a Disciplinarian Council in the NFFC, but if so I'll put you in charge Pat and hopefully Tom and I aren't the first ones to be lynched.

Greg I appreciate your feedback. It's good to hear all sides of the stories. As usual you are always in the line of fire. I don't want the job your offering and certainly don't want anyone to get lynched Maybe David Patreus could do it, I hear he's in between gigs right now.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Since this league was a hot topic last week, I thought we should show this week's free agent pickups just to be as transparent as possible. Of the 13 free agents allowed into the FAAB pool, one was picked up: Jay Cutler. Cutler went for $35, well below what Colin Kaepernik went for. Here are all of the free agent pickups from Week 12 for this $150 Satellite League:

Harry Douglas $1
Dan Bailey $1
T.Y. Hilton $1
Carolina DST $3
Julian Edelman $30
Jay Cutler $35
Bilal Powell $99
Colin Kaepernick $102
Phillip Tanner $115

Good luck to everyone in this league.

[bald is beautiful]

Plus, you forgot to say how much Cutler BLOWS as a fantasy QB. I would have expected that from a Green Bay fan.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Plus, you forgot to say how much Cutler BLOWS as a fantasy QB. I would have expected that from a Green Bay fan.

I like this NFC North race this year. All three teams could reach the playoffs this year, although we'll see if the Vikings can win with Ponder. Hell, I don't even know who to cheer for this week against the Bears and Vikings. It's hard to ever cheer for the Vikings!! I guess I'll root for a 0-0 tie and a Packers' win on Sunday Night!!

I'll be at Lambeau the following two weeks and with any luck I'll host Money for a party in Green Bay vs. Detroit. I'll be there Joe if you're up for the tailgate!!