NFFC Rules Discussion For 2013

[Route C]

... the reward for H2H champ was capped at $3500 with the bigger $$$$ going to points if it would come out more fair. "More fair" meaning the team that scores the highest gets paid the most without the random 3 week playoff

What if the H2H champ was only a few points behind the points leader? Fair to cap his reward?

A good point that also has a solution. If he's within 50 points (just picked a random #) then 3 week playoff ensues. I'm only interested in eliminating bad teams from cashing big....just doesn't seem any different than playing a slot machine to me.

[Money]

Hard to stomach sometimes. Team leading H2H in my league is 175th overall. If he wins this week he pockets $3500 with a shot at the other $3500. Nothing against him personally but there is something very wrong when you can be 11th in your league in scoring and 175th out of 252 teams and get rewarded like that. Anyone still think this is a game of skill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sucks to be in one of the extreme leagues, but currently only 2 teams are worth than 5th in Classic and leading their League in Record.

I'm in a Classic league where the team leading the H2H is 10th in points. What makes it worse is if he doesn't lose this week, he'll likely knock the team that's currently 3rd in points out of the playoffs. The team that would be knocked out.....mine. Even if that happens, I still wouldn't vote to eliminate H2H from these contests.

I'm also part of a $5K Victory Points league in another contest where I led in points for the entire season until this week where I fell to 2nd by only 8 points. Oddly though I'm 2nd in points, I'm somehow 2nd to last in Victory Points. Even while living through that nightmare scenerio, I still wouldn't vote for a points only contest.

This is my hobby. I want my hobby to be as fun as possible. Points only or All Play contests are not.

This is probably easier to stomach in the Classic as opposed to the OLC given that there is another playoff spot available. To finish second in points and record and to lose out to a team 10th in points is tough to swallow for those that love to compete at this time of year.

Competitive spirit doe not come at a certain price point, it comes from the simple desire to be in the game and compete. The OLC should have 3 playoff spots in my opinion.

[Sandman62]

... the reward for H2H champ was capped at $3500 with the bigger $$$$ going to points if it would come out more fair. "More fair" meaning the team that scores the highest gets paid the most without the random 3 week playoff

What if the H2H champ was only a few points behind the points leader? Fair to cap his reward?

A good point that also has a solution. If he's within 50 points (just picked a random #) then 3 week playoff ensues. I'm only interested in eliminating bad teams from cashing big....just doesn't seem any different than playing a slot machine to me.

I like that idea Route C.

And while I truly commend the NFFC for going to great lengths to balance paying the best teams with keeping a H2H component alive, there does seem to be a consensus against a H2H winner who is hundreds of points behind other teams having a 1-in-2 chance of winning 2/3 of the league playoff prize fund. And starting the playoffs with a clean slate (not bringing in season average) seems to aid that too. Most agree though that H2H is still a desired component; so there needs to be some prize for that, as well as some chance of winning more in the playoffs.

It makes sense to bring season weekly point averages into the overall championship playoffs in order to level-set the participants being from different leagues. But it seems that the only reason to reset to zero for the league playoffs is to give the H2H winner who scores a lot less an equal chance at winning the remaining 1/3.

Here’s an idea, and it doesn’t include paying any undeserved additional spots or changing the current amounts; it’s just an attempt to offer all of the best teams a chance at cashing:

• What if the H2H and points winners still each received 1/3 of the league playoff money after the 13-game regular season, but in the league playoffs, also include any team whose total points is within x of the top points scorer? (i.e. 25-50 points, or even something like “scored 98% of top scorer’s points” to make it relative to each league)? So if 2, 3 or even more teams all scored within this close of a range of the top scorer, then they all compete for the remaining 1/3 (because it apparently wasn’t such a runaway conclusion of who was the best team). And if no one scored within this range, then it would just be the H2H winner and the top points scorer, like it is now.

• In the further interest of awarding the best team, why reset points before the league playoffs? Why even use a season weekly average, if the reason for the latter is really to level-set across leagues? Why not just continue the total points race three more weeks? At the end of 16 weeks, the best team would have scored the most - period.

This structure would maintain paying the H2H winner the same amount they receive now for their regular season effort, as well as give them a chance at more - but only if they really deserve it. Many would suggest that a H2H winner who is 100-300 points behind the points leader should be thankful just to have won a decent chunk and that it should be very difficult for them to win another big chunk in the playoffs. And if the H2H winner is close to the points leader, then they shouldn’t have trouble further competing in the playoffs. But by keeping the regular season H2H prize the same as now, this should still keep the interest of the H2H component high. But it also gives deserving teams who were very close to top points a chance to compete for three more weeks and win something. Most of all, it increases the chance of the best team earning the most league money.

[BillyWaz]

While this is all good stuff, and makes sense to the "seasoned veteran" like me, I think this would be EXTREMELY hard to market to new customers. You have to keep the language fairly basic IMO in order to get NEW people.

H2H grinds my gears too, but it has to be rewarded on some level, as that is what "your average Joe" coming into high stakes is used to and comfortable with. I still think the NFFC does the BEST job of at least giving the points leaders chances to cash MORE than any other contest.

I am in the Super Auction, and am 5th in total points right now. The guy leading is 10th in total points and I have over 113 more points than him. The playoffs are H2H, points, points, points. If he loses and I can leapfrog one other team in points, I am in. While I too think this is unfair, it is NEEDED to keep interest (H2H). You could maybe reverse these leagues into points, points, points, H2H, but, I still think a H2H component is needed.

Remember back in 2006 when the NFFC gave $5000 to the H2H winner, and $2500 to the points? Now the total points leader can earn twice as much as H2H. The NFFC has evolved and does a better job than any contest to reward the BEST teams. It's not perfect, but I challenge someone to find a contest that is more fair when it comes to H2H and points.

This was mentioned on the FFPC boards, and is absolutely true....any contest needs NEW players to continuously be added to grow. Making the rules far too complex (even if they don't appear that way to you or me), will not help the growth of this contest.

[Sandman62]

The only differences from now are:
1) Any team within x points is also in league playoffs, competing for remaining 1/3.
2) Don't reset points before league playoffs.

The rest was just my usual long-winded rationale.

[mattjb]

The only differences from now are:
1) Any team within x points is also in league playoffs, competing for remaining 1/3.
2) Don't reset points before league playoffs.

The rest was just my usual long-winded rationale.

That's your team name for next year sorted

[Sandman62]

Touché Matt!
But I thought it better to explain the two suggestions rather than just tossing them out here.

Additions

The only differences from now are:
1) Any team within x points of points leader is also in league playoffs, competing for remaining 1/3.
2) Don't reset points before league playoffs. Or if that's too big of a hole for a low-scoring H2H champ to dig out of, consider league playoff teams bringing in 3x their regular season average. (Keep in mind that this has no effect on the overall playoffs.)

[Greg Ambrosius]

While this is all good stuff, and makes sense to the "seasoned veteran" like me, I think this would be EXTREMELY hard to market to new customers. You have to keep the language fairly basic IMO in order to get NEW people.

H2H grinds my gears too, but it has to be rewarded on some level, as that is what "your average Joe" coming into high stakes is used to and comfortable with. I still think the NFFC does the BEST job of at least giving the points leaders chances to cash MORE than any other contest.

I am in the Super Auction, and am 5th in total points right now. The guy leading is 10th in total points and I have over 113 more points than him. The playoffs are H2H, points, points, points. If he loses and I can leapfrog one other team in points, I am in. While I too think this is unfair, it is NEEDED to keep interest (H2H). You could maybe reverse these leagues into points, points, points, H2H, but, I still think a H2H component is needed.

Remember back in 2006 when the NFFC gave $5000 to the H2H winner, and $2500 to the points? Now the total points leader can earn twice as much as H2H. The NFFC has evolved and does a better job than any contest to reward the BEST teams. It's not perfect, but I challenge someone to find a contest that is more fair when it comes to H2H and points.

This was mentioned on the FFPC boards, and is absolutely true....any contest needs NEW players to continuously be added to grow. Making the rules far too complex (even if they don't appear that way to you or me), will not help the growth of this contest.

Post of the thread. The NFFC has already been accused of being too "niche" with our rules and you can't make things so complicated that it's very tough to understand who wins how much!!

Between both Message Boards, I think we have a lot of positives:
** 13 week regular season
** Total Points League Playoff over 13 weeks that extends the league race through 16 weeks (nobody else has that)
** Fair Way to Pay H2H Champion and Total Points Champion
** Three league teams make Championship Round (2 in OC, which some feel is too few; some know it can't be more)
** Nobody's points are left idle in Weeks 12 and 13 like in some other contests (imagine scoring 190 points last week and it doesn't count for your Consolation Round average or anything else)
** Wild card Championship Round spots for those teams who deserved a spot in Weeks 14-16
** None of our league races end before Thanksgiving

So the one area that folks are asking for changes over is H2H, because it isn't perfect. As Billy said on another board, even Victory Points isn't perfect. We know All-Play isn't perfect. Giving 11 or 13 wins or losses a week isn't perfect or easy to follow. So let's analyze after Week 13 to see if 11th place teams in points win their division titles. One more week can make all the difference in these league races. And then if H2H was a farce and many, many unworthy champions were crowned then we'll look at it. But once again you are seeing the vast majority of league H2H titles up for grabs and a lot of teams still in line for that title and the Total Points title. If 60% of league H2H titles were decided after Week 12, then I'd be concerned. But that isn't happening. And if you look at the data I posted, a lot of H2H leaders ARE among the best teams in each league.

All good suggestions, but our payouts have to be easy to understand and easy to promote. Billy is right (I bet he never thought I'd say that!! )

[JETS SB]

While this is all good stuff, and makes sense to the "seasoned veteran" like me, I think this would be EXTREMELY hard to market to new customers. You have to keep the language fairly basic IMO in order to get NEW people.

H2H grinds my gears too, but it has to be rewarded on some level, as that is what "your average Joe" coming into high stakes is used to and comfortable with. I still think the NFFC does the BEST job of at least giving the points leaders chances to cash MORE than any other contest.

I am in the Super Auction, and am 5th in total points right now. The guy leading is 10th in total points and I have over 113 more points than him. The playoffs are H2H, points, points, points. If he loses and I can leapfrog one other team in points, I am in. While I too think this is unfair, it is NEEDED to keep interest (H2H). You could maybe reverse these leagues into points, points, points, H2H, but, I still think a H2H component is needed.

Remember back in 2006 when the NFFC gave $5000 to the H2H winner, and $2500 to the points? Now the total points leader can earn twice as much as H2H. The NFFC has evolved and does a better job than any contest to reward the BEST teams. It's not perfect, but I challenge someone to find a contest that is more fair when it comes to H2H and points.

This was mentioned on the FFPC boards, and is absolutely true....any contest needs NEW players to continuously be added to grow. Making the rules far too complex (even if they don't appear that way to you or me), will not help the growth of this contest.

Post of the thread. The NFFC has already been accused of being too "niche" with our rules and you can't make things so complicated that it's very tough to understand who wins how much!!

Between both Message Boards, I think we have a lot of positives:
** 13 week regular season
** Total Points League Playoff over 13 weeks that extends the league race through 16 weeks (nobody else has that)
** Fair Way to Pay H2H Champion and Total Points Champion
** Three league teams make Championship Round (2 in OC, which some feel is too few; some know it can't be more)
** Nobody's points are left idle in Weeks 12 and 13 like in some other contests (imagine scoring 190 points last week and it doesn't count for your Consolation Round average or anything else)
** Wild card Championship Round spots for those teams who deserved a spot in Weeks 14-16
** None of our league races end before Thanksgiving

So the one area that folks are asking for changes over is H2H, because it isn't perfect. As Billy said on another board, even Victory Points isn't perfect. We know All-Play isn't perfect. Giving 11 or 13 wins or losses a week isn't perfect or easy to follow. So let's analyze after Week 13 to see if 11th place teams in points win their division titles. One more week can make all the difference in these league races. And then if H2H was a farce and many, many unworthy champions were crowned then we'll look at it. But once again you are seeing the vast majority of league H2H titles up for grabs and a lot of teams still in line for that title and the Total Points title. If 60% of league H2H titles were decided after Week 12, then I'd be concerned. But that isn't happening. And if you look at the data I posted, a lot of H2H leaders ARE among the best teams in each league.

All good suggestions, but our payouts have to be easy to understand and easy to promote. Billy is right (I bet he never thought I'd say that!! )

While this is all good stuff, and makes sense to the "seasoned veteran" like me, I think this would be EXTREMELY hard to market to new customers. You have to keep the language fairly basic IMO in order to get NEW people.

H2H grinds my gears too, but it has to be rewarded on some level, as that is what "your average Joe" coming into high stakes is used to and comfortable with. I still think the NFFC does the BEST job of at least giving the points leaders chances to cash MORE than any other contest.

I am in the Super Auction, and am 5th in total points right now. The guy leading is 10th in total points and I have over 113 more points than him. The playoffs are H2H, points, points, points. If he loses and I can leapfrog one other team in points, I am in. While I too think this is unfair, it is NEEDED to keep interest (H2H). You could maybe reverse these leagues into points, points, points, H2H, but, I still think a H2H component is needed.

Remember back in 2006 when the NFFC gave $5000 to the H2H winner, and $2500 to the points? Now the total points leader can earn twice as much as H2H. The NFFC has evolved and does a better job than any contest to reward the BEST teams. It's not perfect, but I challenge someone to find a contest that is more fair when it comes to H2H and points.

This was mentioned on the FFPC boards, and is absolutely true....any contest needs NEW players to continuously be added to grow. Making the rules far too complex (even if they don't appear that way to you or me), will not help the growth of this contest.

Post of the thread. The NFFC has already been accused of being too "niche" with our rules and you can't make things so complicated that it's very tough to understand who wins how much!!

Between both Message Boards, I think we have a lot of positives:
** 13 week regular season
** Total Points League Playoff over 13 weeks that extends the league race through 16 weeks (nobody else has that)
** Fair Way to Pay H2H Champion and Total Points Champion
** Three league teams make Championship Round (2 in OC, which some feel is too few; some know it can't be more)
** Nobody's points are left idle in Weeks 12 and 13 like in some other contests (imagine scoring 190 points last week and it doesn't count for your Consolation Round average or anything else)
** Wild card Championship Round spots for those teams who deserved a spot in Weeks 14-16
** None of our league races end before Thanksgiving

So the one area that folks are asking for changes over is H2H, because it isn't perfect. As Billy said on another board, even Victory Points isn't perfect. We know All-Play isn't perfect. Giving 11 or 13 wins or losses a week isn't perfect or easy to follow. So let's analyze after Week 13 to see if 11th place teams in points win their division titles. One more week can make all the difference in these league races. And then if H2H was a farce and many, many unworthy champions were crowned then we'll look at it. But once again you are seeing the vast majority of league H2H titles up for grabs and a lot of teams still in line for that title and the Total Points title. If 60% of league H2H titles were decided after Week 12, then I'd be concerned. But that isn't happening. And if you look at the data I posted, a lot of H2H leaders ARE among the best teams in each league.

All good suggestions, but our payouts have to be easy to understand and easy to promote. Billy is right (I bet he never thought I'd say that!! )

My suggestion was not all that complicated. Add another points position to the playoff round in the Classic, like it is in the Super. 1 H2H and 3 points teams. The extra team doesn't have to be rewarded dollars. Many classic leagues, like mine this year, will be rewarding only the top 2 points teams into the playoffs (The H2H champion will likely be 11th in points), out of 14 teams. That is too few and rewarding the top 15% adds very little to this issue, in my opinion. Please explain how this is hard to market to new owners when they are already used to having 6 teams in the playoffs in other competitions?

[Route C]

All good suggestions, but our payouts have to be easy to understand and easy to promote. Billy is right (I bet he never thought I'd say that!! )

Lol! I guess all it take to "be right" is say the NFFC is the perfect contest. Seriously Billy and Greg did you hear Mike's proposal?
I think it's an awesome idea ...and no... William Wazz it's not too hard to understand!
H2H winner gets $3500...just like now
Points leader gets $3500...just like now
Overall points leader after 16 weeks wins the last $3500. This sure would make for an interesting final 3 weeks of league play especially in those tight leagues where 4 or 5 teams are within 75 points of the leader with 3 weeks to go.
Would this not keep more teams interested?
Would this not be easy to market? More ways to win! C'mon man be creative. The only reason IMO the other contest has grown so quickly is they are great at marketing. This seems like a simple plug to me...one that would bring in new players.

Good idea Mike...easily the best on this thread!