Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format

Money · Post by **Money** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:16 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
One of the things to keep in mind is that we're often accused about being too niche, so I don't want that to happen with the 12-team event. We need to keep this mainstream so that folks understand it clearly. Trust me, not everyone even reads the rules!!

So it needs to be done and explained easily. "If I finish here, I get this much.....", right?

I think we're all on the same page and it's a good discussion, which is what I expected. We all want the most money to go to the best teams and to keep as many teams fighting for money finishes as possible, yet simply explainable!! That's the goal. And over a 13-week regular season so that we all get our money's worth. Now, how can we best accomplish that?

Nothing against any model out there, I'm just not content to duplicate someone else's or claim that ours is foolproof. I'm always trying to improve on our mousetrap and feedback from the users can help in that goal.

And Mike, that's GREAT DATA. Agreed on all, but you are right at some point we need to reward the regular-season champs with payouts for h2h AND total points after Week 13 makes the most sense. Even if it's as close as you say. Great debate. No way everyone can agree on one approach. I agree, keep as many teams as involved as long as possible while rewarding the best teams. I'm surprised the "All play" weeks haven't been brought into the conversation. All great businesses tweak there product every year.

Not sure this one needs much tweaking....

particra · Post by **particra** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:24 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:
I like having a playoff for the league title, and I like the FFPC setup which guarantees the top 2 in both points and record make the playoffs. However, I don't think the FFPC-style 1-week H2H matchups are ideal, and I don't see why league money should be awarded before the playoffs even begin.

I'd like to see league playoffs concurrent with and similar to the overall playoff, with the top 4 seeds in each league competing over weeks 14-16 for the league title and ALL league money. Each team also would carry their regular season point average into the league playoff as a reward for a strong regular season - same as in the overall race. I like this idea the best, with the exception that I think 4 playoff teams is too many for a 12 team league. I would go with 3.

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:43 pm

Originally posted by Hells Satans:
I like this idea the best, with the exception that I think 4 playoff teams is too many for a 12 team league. I would go with 3. That fourth team will keep a lot of teams in the race deep into the season which should make for a better league. If that fourth place can do it during playoff crunch time and overcome a point handicap, I have no problem with that team deserving the league or overall title.

The NFL has close to a 1:3 ratio of playoff teams having expanded over time for the same reason, to keep more fans interested deeper into the season. And baseball is expanding for the second time in recent memory next season.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:44 pm

In all this talk, I really hope we don't lose the 13 game regular season.

While the FFPC format is good, the 11 week regular season is simply not long enough, and for those who don't make the "final four", you basically are paying a lot of money for about 2/3 of the regular NFL season "action".

I disagree with KJ, that no money should be paid out before the playoffs. A perfect example would be the team who is dominating the entire FFPC (Sandbar). Last week he scored 98 points. If he does that again this week, he should get nothing? I LOVE how the NFFC pays out the money BEFORE the "lottery" championship round.

I would have no problem with the NFFC expanding to 4 teams to go for some remaining league money during weeks 14-16 (exactly like the Supers and auction....record, and next 3 total points), but I prefer most of that to be awarded for the body of work done in 13 weeks.

I do agree with KJ that it would be nice to have the exact same rules (scoring, playoff requirements, etc.) for BOTH the Classic and Primetime.....just makes it easier.

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:46 pm

Originally posted by BillyWaz:
I would have no problem with the NFFC expanding to 4 teams to go for some remaining league money during weeks 14-16 (exactly like the Supers and auction....record, and next 3 total points), but I prefer most of that to be awarded for the body of work done in 13 weeks. Why Billy? If your team absolutely fails over an extended 3-week playoff time (blowing your point edge in the playoffs), why should you take home most of the league money?

(But I agree with you on the 13-week season).

[ November 25, 2011, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:56 pm

What point edge are we talking about? If it is the current edge, it isn't even much of an advantage.

If team A averages 150 points over 13 weeks, and team B averages 140 points, team A gets a 10 point start? They scored 130 more points over the season. Make it 2x your average, and then we can talk.

I see your point, and if there is $7500 tied up in league money, shouldn't both the points leader and best record get at least $2000 each after the regular season?

Jules had a team in I believe 2006 that steamrolled everyone for 13 weeks, caught a horrible rash of injuries and did nothing during weeks 14-16. I just feel people who earn it over 13 weeks deserve something more than a good 3 week run. After all, we are talking about a time period over 4x as much.

Weeks 14-16 have there importance in the overall grand prize, but I don't feel that is where all the money should be made.

kjduke · Post by **kjduke** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:18 pm

Originally posted by BillyWaz:
What point edge are we talking about? If it is the current edge, it isn't even much of an advantage.

If team A averages 150 points over 13 weeks, and team B averages 140 points, team A gets a 10 point start? They scored 130 more points over the season. Make it 2x your average, and then we can talk.

I see your point, and if there is $7500 tied up in league money, shouldn't both the points leader and best record get at least $2000 each after the regular season?

Jules had a team in I believe 2006 that steamrolled everyone for 13 weeks, caught a horrible rash of injuries and did nothing during weeks 14-16. I just feel people who earn it over 13 weeks deserve something more than a good 3 week run. After all, we are talking about a time period over 4x as much.

Weeks 14-16 have there importance in the overall grand prize, but I don't feel that is where all the money should be made. I wouldnt object to some league money for the regular season, but I don't think it should be half. Maybe $1k each in this format for the top 2, but mostly I think you want to reward the league champ which should be based on the full 16 weeks.

[ November 25, 2011, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:26 pm

I can understand that thinking, and I agree about rewarding someone for 16 full weeks.

Problem is when we hit the "reset button" after 13, an advantage is pretty much gone and we rewarding someone for a 3 week sprint, not 16 weeks.

I see why the contests do it (keeps many more involved), but the person who has led the NFFC after 13 weeks in points has only won the grand prize ONCE. I realize you would only be competing against 1-3 people instead of the current 50-60 (based on the year), but it still isn't rewarding the best team over 16 full weeks.

If it ever were to go to this format, I hope it is a total points race for 3 weeks and NOT H2H. Really starting to despise leagues that place such an emphasize on H2H as it is so damn unpredictable. There is already so much out of our control in this game, why add more?

[ November 25, 2011, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:39 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:
I like having a playoff for the league title, and I like the FFPC setup which guarantees the top 2 in both points and record make the playoffs. However, I don't think the FFPC-style 1-week H2H matchups are ideal, and I don't see why league money should be awarded before the playoffs even begin.

I'd like to see league playoffs concurrent with and similar to the overall playoff, with the top 4 seeds in each league competing over weeks 14-16 for the league title and ALL league money. Each team also would carry their regular season point average into the league playoff as a reward for a strong regular season - same as in the overall race.

I'd also do away with the wildcards and put all four playoff teams into the overall race. This makes it very simple - top two in either league points or record guarantees you a playoff berth - and it keeps many teams in the race for most of the season. The same structure could be used for the 14-team leagues, which further simplifies it for all of us that compete in both formats. I can say emphatically that we will NOT have a regular season just for seeding purposes without rewarding prize money to the top teams. I've received several emails from owners who saw this idea and begged that we wouldn't move forward with it. I can say that we won't, that we want to continue with the 13-week regular season if it makes sense and we want to reward the best teams with the most money. I don't think we have to mirror the NFL model to reach those goals.

All ideas are welcome, but creating a regular season that just seeds teams isn't my idea of growing this event. Teams should and will be rewarded for solid regular seasons. It would be like running the NFBC through August and then seeding teams from that point on and giving away all of the prize money for your September performances. There's no way that would be acceptable and I don't think we want December to determine ALL of the prize money in the NFFC, either.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:46 am

That being said, KJ's suggestion that the NFFC continue with a 13-week regular season and some form of league playoffs in Weeks 14-16 has some merit. That's creating a longer season for everyone and a unique h2h matchup in the playoffs. I like that better than an 11-week regular season and playoffs for just four teams in Weeks 12-13. I'm not sure, though, that I'd want Week 16 being for the most money since many of our stars can sit in Week 16. So there's plenty to explore there that isn't perfect, but it has some merit. Again, my concern is not rewarding enough to the regular season's dominant teams, which our system currently does and does well.

If the idea is to keep more teams involved longer, then I guess something like this is needed. If it's to reward the best teams the most money, then maybe it's not the best setup. Maybe we already have that.