My experience is much more limited than yours Tom and the 10-15 guys that I communicate with on a fairly regular basis have never mentioned the grand prize as a reason to play. It's funny, but the guys in the FFPC never mentioned it either this year. But I could be wrong. But I will say this, sometimes when you are really close to something it's easy to miss things. I know that I have had huge revelations about my business from sources that I never thought would contribute. Perhaps it is all about who offers the biggest grand prize...
Wayne
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Wayne, we want to look into everything and see where we're falling short and where we can grow further. I don't think it's a coincidence, though, that FFPC's biggest growth came the year they significantly increased their grand prize. I agree with Greg that I think that's arguably the biggest factor people look at when choosing an event. I keep hearing from both our NFFC and NFBC players, for example, that grand prizes are far more appealing than league prizes. Greg and I hear that frequently and we heard it from many of our NFBC players rather emphatically when we discussed the payouts for the new 12-team Main Event we're going to offer in 2012.
Greg and I have our beliefs but we definitely want to hear from all of you. That's why we've sent out one survey and will soon send out another. We're not married to anything long-term other than growing our business intelligently. A big grand prize and exposure thru marketing and partnerships are going to overwhelm anything like 3RR, double-flex or playoff structure in attracting new business. FFPC executed well on both fronts at a time when a similar contest was folding, so its no surprise they picked up many of those players.
However, other issues are going to come into play when existing players are deciding where to play next season. Many players will return based on their experience this season, which is why I think the longer you keep those players engaged the more likely they will return. Having 4 playoff teams, as FFPC/WCOFF have/had, obviously keeps hope alive for a lot more teams than does 2-3 playoff spots in either a 12 or 14 team league.
The guys like myself and Wayne and a few hundred others will play either way, but the FFPC will continue to have a game-play edge on the NFFC when it comes to attracting and retaining marginal players simply because more of those players will be alive deeper into their league's regular season.
You could argue that having a 13-week vs 11-week season is an edge for the NFFC, and at the margin I think it is, but you're still at a disadvantage because you're allowing only 21%-25% of your total player universe a shot at glory during playoff time rather than 33%. If you open that playoff race to 4 teams rather than 2-3, the NFFC would go from a deficit to having an edge in retaining those marginal players because of the longer season.
As for 3RR, KDS, 1.5 TE, 2x flex, those are easy enough for anyone to understand - I doubt they are game-changers for the marginal player.
Wayne, we want to look into everything and see where we're falling short and where we can grow further. I don't think it's a coincidence, though, that FFPC's biggest growth came the year they significantly increased their grand prize. I agree with Greg that I think that's arguably the biggest factor people look at when choosing an event. I keep hearing from both our NFFC and NFBC players, for example, that grand prizes are far more appealing than league prizes. Greg and I hear that frequently and we heard it from many of our NFBC players rather emphatically when we discussed the payouts for the new 12-team Main Event we're going to offer in 2012.
Greg and I have our beliefs but we definitely want to hear from all of you. That's why we've sent out one survey and will soon send out another. We're not married to anything long-term other than growing our business intelligently. A big grand prize and exposure thru marketing and partnerships are going to overwhelm anything like 3RR, double-flex or playoff structure in attracting new business. FFPC executed well on both fronts at a time when a similar contest was folding, so its no surprise they picked up many of those players.
However, other issues are going to come into play when existing players are deciding where to play next season. Many players will return based on their experience this season, which is why I think the longer you keep those players engaged the more likely they will return. Having 4 playoff teams, as FFPC/WCOFF have/had, obviously keeps hope alive for a lot more teams than does 2-3 playoff spots in either a 12 or 14 team league.
The guys like myself and Wayne and a few hundred others will play either way, but the FFPC will continue to have a game-play edge on the NFFC when it comes to attracting and retaining marginal players simply because more of those players will be alive deeper into their league's regular season.
You could argue that having a 13-week vs 11-week season is an edge for the NFFC, and at the margin I think it is, but you're still at a disadvantage because you're allowing only 21%-25% of your total player universe a shot at glory during playoff time rather than 33%. If you open that playoff race to 4 teams rather than 2-3, the NFFC would go from a deficit to having an edge in retaining those marginal players because of the longer season.
As for 3RR, KDS, 1.5 TE, 2x flex, those are easy enough for anyone to understand - I doubt they are game-changers for the marginal player.
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Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30136
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
KJ, I definitely agree with what you said about marketing. There's no doubt in my mind that FFPC's partnership with footballguys was a brilliant move on their part. Dave and Alex are to be commended for that because it provided them access to arguably the largest source of fantasy players in the industry. That was extremely well done on their part.
As far as game format, I think Greg has done an excellent job of showing how strong our format is in terms of providing a large number of teams the opportunity to cash in their leagues and/or the overall competition. But again I'll say that we will look at everything once the season is over. If there are changes that need to be made, we'll make them.
As far as game format, I think Greg has done an excellent job of showing how strong our format is in terms of providing a large number of teams the opportunity to cash in their leagues and/or the overall competition. But again I'll say that we will look at everything once the season is over. If there are changes that need to be made, we'll make them.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36413
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Wow, how did this discussion go from improving the NFFC Primetime to 1.5 points for tight ends and Flex positions? That's why we have different games, so folks can play different formats.
You're right Wayne, I don't agree with everything you said, but that's not the point. The point is to look at ways we can improve our game not copy what WCOFF did or anyone else is doing. We have a product that we think can grow bigger and that's what this thread is for, not just looking at one competitor. Next year the field could be filled with competitors again and we want to make sure we have everything in place beforehand to succeed.
Yes, having an NFL Viewing Party on Thursday makes sense and having a good promotional partner helps. We never went "ALL IN" on that weekend before but will next year. We're pretty good at throwing parties and providing good customer service and drinking with the boys, so I think we have a handle on all of that. That's the easy part. We have some options to grow our user base in 2012 as well. But fine-tuning the game format is what this thread was all about.
Back to the regular programming, hopefully. Yikes.
You're right Wayne, I don't agree with everything you said, but that's not the point. The point is to look at ways we can improve our game not copy what WCOFF did or anyone else is doing. We have a product that we think can grow bigger and that's what this thread is for, not just looking at one competitor. Next year the field could be filled with competitors again and we want to make sure we have everything in place beforehand to succeed.
Yes, having an NFL Viewing Party on Thursday makes sense and having a good promotional partner helps. We never went "ALL IN" on that weekend before but will next year. We're pretty good at throwing parties and providing good customer service and drinking with the boys, so I think we have a handle on all of that. That's the easy part. We have some options to grow our user base in 2012 as well. But fine-tuning the game format is what this thread was all about.
Back to the regular programming, hopefully. Yikes.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Nevermind then.
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Wow, how did this discussion go from improving the NFFC Primetime to 1.5 points for tight ends and Flex positions? That's why we have different games, so folks can play different formats.
You're right Wayne, I don't agree with everything you said, but that's not the point. The point is to look at ways we can improve our game not copy what WCOFF did or anyone else is doing. We have a product that we think can grow bigger and that's what this thread is for, not just looking at one competitor. Next year the field could be filled with competitors again and we want to make sure we have everything in place beforehand to succeed.
Yes, having an NFL Viewing Party on Thursday makes sense and having a good promotional partner helps. We never went "ALL IN" on that weekend before but will next year. We're pretty good at throwing parties and providing good customer service and drinking with the boys, so I think we have a handle on all of that. That's the easy part. We have some options to grow our user base in 2012 as well. But fine-tuning the game format is what this thread was all about.
Back to the regular programming, hopefully. Yikes. Just wanted to add I think bringing back weekly prize for high scorer could only help in the promotions, as well as keep more teams active throughout the season. Something like autographed jersey or helmet would be fun...
Wow, how did this discussion go from improving the NFFC Primetime to 1.5 points for tight ends and Flex positions? That's why we have different games, so folks can play different formats.
You're right Wayne, I don't agree with everything you said, but that's not the point. The point is to look at ways we can improve our game not copy what WCOFF did or anyone else is doing. We have a product that we think can grow bigger and that's what this thread is for, not just looking at one competitor. Next year the field could be filled with competitors again and we want to make sure we have everything in place beforehand to succeed.
Yes, having an NFL Viewing Party on Thursday makes sense and having a good promotional partner helps. We never went "ALL IN" on that weekend before but will next year. We're pretty good at throwing parties and providing good customer service and drinking with the boys, so I think we have a handle on all of that. That's the easy part. We have some options to grow our user base in 2012 as well. But fine-tuning the game format is what this thread was all about.
Back to the regular programming, hopefully. Yikes. Just wanted to add I think bringing back weekly prize for high scorer could only help in the promotions, as well as keep more teams active throughout the season. Something like autographed jersey or helmet would be fun...
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Cocktails and Dreams
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
If the WCOFF was the biggest and in many peoples opinion the best format and rules out there, I would strongly considering just going to exactly what they did as well with rosters size scoring, no kds, no 3rr etc. You could possibly make it 13 weeks but leave everything else the same if that seemed to work well for them until those crooks became wreckless with our money. I understand why things needed to be different when they were the competition. I am just not sure the 6 a td pass and things like that are necessary when they aren't around anymore. If people are on the sidelines and liked those rules and formats, then I think maybe they would have good reason to come back if you went that route and maintain your extremely trustworthy reputation.
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
KJ makes some good points that ring true for me this year. My PT Team is 8-4. One loss was AP, the other three were by 2.8, 0.65, and 5. I'm 45th overall in points. Unfortunately, the 15th and 19th overall teams are in my league.
Not only am I not going to win any league money, unless I jump up 9 spots in the Overall, I basically have no chance at the overall playoffs. With 30 leagues, there's no way that a team that is 45th overall should not be part of the playoffs.
I know this kind of stuff happens every year, but expanding the WC entries for the PT should be the first thing you do
Not only am I not going to win any league money, unless I jump up 9 spots in the Overall, I basically have no chance at the overall playoffs. With 30 leagues, there's no way that a team that is 45th overall should not be part of the playoffs.
I know this kind of stuff happens every year, but expanding the WC entries for the PT should be the first thing you do
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36413
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Originally posted by Hells Satans:
KJ makes some good points that ring true for me this year. My PT Team is 8-4. One loss was AP, the other three were by 2.8, 0.65, and 5. I'm 45th overall in points. Unfortunately, the 15th and 19th overall teams are in my league.
Not only am I not going to win any league money, unless I jump up 9 spots in the Overall, I basically have no chance at the overall playoffs. With 30 leagues, there's no way that a team that is 45th overall should not be part of the playoffs.
I know this kind of stuff happens every year, but expanding the WC entries for the PT should be the first thing you do KJ's points are about rewarding more h2h teams in each league, which in your case I'm not sure would hold true. It sounds like you've had some tough h2h losses, which happens. But I agree, expanding the number of teams that get into the Championship Round based on points is one area we can and will look at.
Could we create more fun around the third place league money and keep more teams in the hunt for that each year? Absolutely. Of course, then you'll have third place finishers who feel cheated out of losing that money through 13 weeks and having to fight again for it. But there might be a happy medium there we can tackle that involves those third place teams.
The entire discussion has been good for us and is making us look at more ways we can reward our owners and try to solve the perceived problem of team owners quitting too early. We want EVERYONE to play for 16 straight weeks and have something on the line along the entire journey. I think there are solutions to make that happen if we want to incorporate them for 2012 and beyond.
KJ makes some good points that ring true for me this year. My PT Team is 8-4. One loss was AP, the other three were by 2.8, 0.65, and 5. I'm 45th overall in points. Unfortunately, the 15th and 19th overall teams are in my league.
Not only am I not going to win any league money, unless I jump up 9 spots in the Overall, I basically have no chance at the overall playoffs. With 30 leagues, there's no way that a team that is 45th overall should not be part of the playoffs.
I know this kind of stuff happens every year, but expanding the WC entries for the PT should be the first thing you do KJ's points are about rewarding more h2h teams in each league, which in your case I'm not sure would hold true. It sounds like you've had some tough h2h losses, which happens. But I agree, expanding the number of teams that get into the Championship Round based on points is one area we can and will look at.
Could we create more fun around the third place league money and keep more teams in the hunt for that each year? Absolutely. Of course, then you'll have third place finishers who feel cheated out of losing that money through 13 weeks and having to fight again for it. But there might be a happy medium there we can tackle that involves those third place teams.
The entire discussion has been good for us and is making us look at more ways we can reward our owners and try to solve the perceived problem of team owners quitting too early. We want EVERYONE to play for 16 straight weeks and have something on the line along the entire journey. I think there are solutions to make that happen if we want to incorporate them for 2012 and beyond.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Analyzing NFFC Primetime Playoff Format
Personally, I really don't care about spreading out some nominal league money to a 3rd team in a 12 team league. To me, having a chance at the big nut is far more important (especially if you have a team that basically deserves a chance). IMO, with 30 leagues, anyone in the Top 60 should have that chance (2 from every league). This probably amounts to no more than 5-10 extra teams in the playoff who wouldn't make it when the cutoff is Top 36.