3RR In The NFFC: Necessary Or Unnecessary Evil?

[Greg Ambrosius]

This is a post that was made by Azzurri on our Draft Results thread and I thought it was a worthy discussion. I'm going to load that thread up with more draft results shortly, so I didn't want it to get lost on Page 34. A few people have responded already and I'll copy and paste those posts over here as well. Have fun with the discussion.

Don has competed in our NFFC Classic and Primetime the last couple of years and has chosen not to return because of 3RR. I don't feel that I should get involved in the discussion now as I'd love to see all opinions on this subject and then I'll weigh in. I do think that with KDS we have shown that in many ways 3RR/KDS is working better than ever this year even without the consensus top players, but I'm interested in other opinions as well. Maybe as Don says, 3RR has run its course since LaDainian Tomlinson retired and especially in 12-team leagues. I'm interested in hearing all other views.

Here's Azzurri's initial post:

3rr has LONG past its reason to be used. All it does in 12 tams drafts is heavily favor the late spots and kills the early ones. So why in the world are they still using it here? I dont play here anymore just because of this 3rr in 12 team leagues and don't give the kds bs, that just chases people away from here also. The time to get rid of 3rr has come and gone, meaning get rid of it Greg, esp. in 12 team leagues. Ive been drafting since march and I have seen at least fifteen different players get picked #1 over all. that really should say it all about using 3rr anymore. No longer are RBs ruling this hobby, in fact it's quite the opposite now imo with WR's ruling it esp in ppr contests or leagues. If you don't take a RB if get a top 5-6 spot in a 3rr draft what are you left with with your 2 and 4 round picks. Im thinking in any 3rr draft you almost have to take a dreaded RB early, and now a days in the pass happy nfl who wants to be doing much of that? yet in 3rr im thinking it makes you have to. To give late spots an even bigger advantage is just plain wrong...3rr needs to go and should have been gone already. it came about to take away the early one, two spot advantage, yet now its giving that same advantage to the later 9-12 slots... then why the heck is it being used then?

Get rid of 3rr Greg id love to play here more. No reason at all to still be using 3rr in 12 team drafts or imo any draft 14 teams included. 3rr is the reason i don't play here hardly at all anymore. it just makes no sense whatsoever to me. It came about because of the early draft spots advantage, well now those learly spots suck to be in and late spots clearly have the advantage so why use 3rr and give those late spots even more of an advantage?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Again, I'm posting here because I don't want this discussion buried on another thread. Here were the two following thoughts after Don's initial post. Please carry on the discussion here. Thanks all.

Re: 2015 NFFC Early Draft Results

Postby Monkeyville » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:11 am
Honestly this is why I came to the NFFC 5 years ago because of 3RR. When you think NFFC you think 3RR. I'd be interested to know the signup statistics from year to year to know if players are leaving because of the rule. I'm a fan.


Re: 2015 NFFC Early Draft Results

Postby got heeem » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:22 am
I play because of 3rr.I have always liked it,there will always be a few who hate anything different.So if you don't like it here with 3rr/no trades/getting paid in a timely manner,then move along.There will always be some other LAME SITE that will "take your money".Just hope they pay at the end.

[JohnP]

haha - another 3RR debate! If you think 3RR gives the back end too much advantage then set your KDS that way as to take advantage. There still appears to be plenty of people setting their KDS for the front end and I wouldn't be surprised to see just as many winners coming from the early slots as late slots. I am not seeing many late draft slots getting Luck / Rodgers for example. Maybe Luck will match Rodgers' 50 TDs this year and both will be difference makers. Whatever you feel about 3RR - surely shouldn't be the reason to not play this contest in my opinion. Great game, great operators, good ROI, and you always get paid.

[bald is beautiful]

3RR is just another way to do a draft. I agree that it really is not necessary right now because of the equal talent distribution throughout the first round, but every year is different. 3RR is overrated because it still comes down to good drafting, not where you are in the draft.

I think stating that you are not playing here because of 3RR is a copout. I would not change the rules because a small minority does not like the setup. Complaints are going to happen in every contest when hundreds of players play and different opinions abound.

[chriseibl]

While it's less useful now than any other I've been a part of the NFFC, 3RR is still the most fair way to draft. Without it, my KDS would probably be 1-12 for pretty much every draft, every year without any question or thinking. Maybe people don't want to think?

Mathematically, there's almost always going to be a far greater variance among the statistical projections of players in the first round than any other round. The best you can do to compensate the late drafters on the 1/2 turn is to give them every possible advantage going forward in the 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, etc.. rounds. Especially because those later rounds aren't as set in stone in terms of where players go compared to the early rounds.

In the end, being a good drafter is far more important than where you draft. This year, there seems to be a drop-off in talent after the early 3rd round this year so whoever has those early 3rd round picks is going to be at an advantage. I'd rather the team who had a tougher pick in the first round have that advantage.

[kjduke]

The front end of both R1 and R3 have an edge over the back-end this year (more so than in R2 and R4), which is why 3RR is working so well this year (as it usually does).

KDS data is gold, it gives you a "vote with your money" viewpoint of the entire draft population. 3RR is needed and probably always will be, but KDS data will let you know if it isn't ... until there is an overwhelming skew of 12-1 preferences it shouldn't even be a debate.

[FantasyJC]

If one of the stud RBs or WRs falls to like 10th, 11th, 12th, then you are not losing much of an advantage. There are really good players left at the start of the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Then the talent drops off towards the end of the 3rd round. A guy drafting top 3 will not be able to pick a stud RB 2 or stud WR 2 most likely. The difference between a sure WR 2 or sure RB 2 to one that has questions could be a lot.

I don't want to mention specific NFL players but it is not uncommon for teams to have really strong top 3 cores.

[Erok]

Here is my take on this....

For 14 team leagues, 3RR is an absolute necessity! That was the reason for the NFFC using it to my knowledge. It leveled the playing field if you did not get an early round pick. I loved it for 14-teamers. I even adopted it in my local league I ran back in 2006-2012 when it was 14 teams. Once we lost two players, we eliminated the 3RR.

Now that the majority of the NFFC leagues are 12 team leagues, I do not feel there is a need for 3RR. I also agree with Azurri that it puts teams with an early pick at a slight disadvantage, particularly this year......especially in a sharp league.

I enjoy the NFFC and have played here since 2004 so I will not stop playing here but I wouldn't mind seeing it eliminated from the 12-team leagues next year. I think it should be kept for any 14-team leagues. Just my two cents.

[chriseibl]

Here is my take on this....

For 14 team leagues, 3RR is an absolute necessity! That was the reason for the NFFC using it to my knowledge. It leveled the playing field if you did not get an early round pick. I loved it for 14-teamers. I even adopted it in my local league I ran back in 2006-2012 when it was 14 teams. Once we lost two players, we eliminated the 3RR.

Now that the majority of the NFFC leagues are 12 team leagues, I do not feel there is a need for 3RR. I also agree with Azurri that it puts teams with an early pick at a slight disadvantage, particularly this year......especially in a sharp league.

I enjoy the NFFC and have played here since 2004 so I will not stop playing here but I wouldn't mind seeing it eliminated from the 12-team leagues next year. I think it should be kept for any 14-team leagues. Just my two cents.

If the teams picking early have a "slight disadvantage", wouldn't that disadvantage be exacerbated if the team getting to pick early in the 3rd round was the same team who got to pick early in the 1st round? In general, round 1 is more important than round 2 so if you had to give the advantage of round 3 to someone, it is objectively most fair to give it to the team in the worst round 1 position.

I do agree that 3RR isn't as important as it is in prior years without an obvious #1 pick but it still helps even things out. I also suspect that the top rbs/wrs are going to be less likely to drop to those late first round spots when the primetime drafts come around.

KJ made the best point here and that is we are still seeing decent variation in the preferred spots in KDS, which means it's working. The only spots people are avoiding are the very earliest ones but that's more because this is a rare year where there isn't a clear cut #1.

[CALI CARTEL]

Like others have said, this year the 3RR is not great at balancing the draft spots since the later picks do well in the first three rounds. However if you eliminate the 3RR, the early picks become way over balanced, being able to get a stud like Le'Veon, AP or Antonio Brown, plus getting an early 3rd rounder would make all those picks the most desirable and valuable.

It's never going to work the same way every year, but you can't just say, "It's time to eliminate the 3RR, because this year it's not balanced". Next year, who knows, it might shift back to even if a handful of guys step to a a level above the rest. In fact, if Le'Veon Bell wasn't suspended this year, he'd be the 100% first overall pick and without 3RR that top pick would be a situation like we had in Baseball this year, where nearly everyone KDS'd #1 as their top selection trying to get Mike Trout.