Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Originally posted by Sandman62:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BillyWaz:
CLASSIC (from #6)
1- WR Randy Moss
2- QB Drew Brees
3- WR Eddie Royal
4- WR Hines Ward
5- TE Dallas Clark
6- RB Larry Johnson
7- RB Chester Taylor
8- WR Josh Morgan
9- RB Willis McGahee
10-TE Jeremy Shockey
Got Jamaal Charles, Caddy, and Philly's D later, but nothing else that helped. RB was a mess the majority of the year, and not having a 3rd WR or flex player hurt as well.
But except for Royal, this team seems like it was largely carried by your early picks - your best 2 WRs (Moss and Ward) and your QB I gotta think Dallas Clark helped a little too. (probably just an oversight).
I agree with you Mike, and appreciate your feedback. Early projections have me all over the place right now, but I am hoping to lock into a "position" soon enough.
[ July 10, 2010, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BillyWaz:
CLASSIC (from #6)
1- WR Randy Moss
2- QB Drew Brees
3- WR Eddie Royal
4- WR Hines Ward
5- TE Dallas Clark
6- RB Larry Johnson
7- RB Chester Taylor
8- WR Josh Morgan
9- RB Willis McGahee
10-TE Jeremy Shockey
Got Jamaal Charles, Caddy, and Philly's D later, but nothing else that helped. RB was a mess the majority of the year, and not having a 3rd WR or flex player hurt as well.
But except for Royal, this team seems like it was largely carried by your early picks - your best 2 WRs (Moss and Ward) and your QB I gotta think Dallas Clark helped a little too. (probably just an oversight).
I agree with you Mike, and appreciate your feedback. Early projections have me all over the place right now, but I am hoping to lock into a "position" soon enough.
[ July 10, 2010, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Yes, Clark certainly helped too. Again though, going back to "Which tiers at each position should I try to avoid?"... Clark is a tier 1 TE; if you can get good value for him, take him, otherwise wait wait wait on TEs cuz the next tier is another crap shoot filled w/ land mines.
Had you taken a Boldin, Colston, Steve Smith (CAR) in round 2 instead of Brees, then Manning/Rodgers/Rivers in round 3, instead of Royal... I suspect you might've competed well in this league. Again, IMO, Royal was clearly a tier 3 WR coming into last year (with upside though, but not established like the top 13 or so WRs). And tier 3 WRs last year had a 56% failure rate: After the top 13 WRs, which I refer to as tier 1 and 2, there were 18 WRs in tier 3. Of those, 8 were more than 21 spots off their preseason ranking, 2 were between 11-20 spots off, 4 within +/-10 spots, and only 4 exceeded their preseason ranking by 11-20 spots (none exceeded by more than 20).
Good stuff here for anyone following along at home.
[ July 10, 2010, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
Had you taken a Boldin, Colston, Steve Smith (CAR) in round 2 instead of Brees, then Manning/Rodgers/Rivers in round 3, instead of Royal... I suspect you might've competed well in this league. Again, IMO, Royal was clearly a tier 3 WR coming into last year (with upside though, but not established like the top 13 or so WRs). And tier 3 WRs last year had a 56% failure rate: After the top 13 WRs, which I refer to as tier 1 and 2, there were 18 WRs in tier 3. Of those, 8 were more than 21 spots off their preseason ranking, 2 were between 11-20 spots off, 4 within +/-10 spots, and only 4 exceeded their preseason ranking by 11-20 spots (none exceeded by more than 20).
Good stuff here for anyone following along at home.
[ July 10, 2010, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Originally posted by Sandman62:
Had you taken a Boldin, Colston, Steve Smith (CAR) in round 2 instead of Brees, then Manning/Rodgers/Rivers in round 3, instead of Royal... I suspect you might've competed well in this league. This is where "league placement" comes into play.
I was picking 6th, and neither Colston or Steve Smith were available to me (Boldin was, but he was an injury risk and didn't produce all that great...210 pts).
Next, Rodgers was gone at 2.14, and Manning went with the next pick at 3.1. Royal was next on my list, and I took him. Yes, I could have had Rivers, and in hindsight (which is always 20/20), that could of been the direction I went.
Problem is this year, there is a VERY slim chance that Brees, Rodgers, and Manning make it to even the end of the 2nd round.
Had you taken a Boldin, Colston, Steve Smith (CAR) in round 2 instead of Brees, then Manning/Rodgers/Rivers in round 3, instead of Royal... I suspect you might've competed well in this league. This is where "league placement" comes into play.
I was picking 6th, and neither Colston or Steve Smith were available to me (Boldin was, but he was an injury risk and didn't produce all that great...210 pts).
Next, Rodgers was gone at 2.14, and Manning went with the next pick at 3.1. Royal was next on my list, and I took him. Yes, I could have had Rivers, and in hindsight (which is always 20/20), that could of been the direction I went.
Problem is this year, there is a VERY slim chance that Brees, Rodgers, and Manning make it to even the end of the 2nd round.
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions Glenn!
The reason we drafted both main event teams last year this way is because the data from 2008 also supported the same conclusions. Until the NFL relaxes some recent rules that favor WRs and until RBBC goes away - IOW, as long as it's still a passing league - I don't see this changing. I'm not making the mistake of paying for last year's stats on certain players (a common mistake). Rather, I've identified positional tiers that have the most busts and we want to avoid. Venture into these tiers at your own risk (and obviously some folks prefer the high risk/reward option).
As for your #2 above, please post ALL of the mid-late round WRs you've drafted in all main events as long as you've been in the NFFC. Then we can see just how accurate you've really been. I maintain that most people have selective memory w/ this sort of thing - they remember the occasional hits and ignore the misses. For instance, yes, we drafted Steve Smith (NYG) in round 8 last year; but we also took Justin Gage, Bobby Engram and Ronald Curry too.
Interestingly, ESPN's Matthew Berry, in his Draft Day Manifesto, seems to agree (though I know he's just another man's opnion, yet he also backs it up w/ stats):
I sort of feel that way with running backs this year. You're paying too much for role and opportunity when there's a very good chance what you paid for could vanish into thin air.
...
My basic take is that if you can't get at least one of the elite, non-committee running backs, you can wait on that position. You will have to mix and match, playing the matchup game during the season, but it's not a season-killer if you don't get a 20-touches-a-game back.
...
More than half of those 15 (Ray Rice, Thomas Jones, Ricky Williams, Joseph Addai, Jonathan Stewart, Jamaal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall and Cedric Benson) were drafted in the fourth round or later, if at all, last season.
...
By devaluing running backs, it allows you to use resources elsewhere to dominate at other positions. Like at quarterback. There's a steep drop-off this year among quarterbacks after the top seven (Brees, Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, Schaub, Romo, Rivers) and I'll throw Favre in there if he comes back (which he will). Ideally, you get one of those eight.
...
What about wide receivers? In this column last year I talked about needing elite wideouts in the first few rounds, and ideally two of them in the first three rounds. Well, other than Calvin Johnson (cough), the wideouts were a fairly consistent bunch.
...
Check out the top 20 wideouts drafted and the top 20 scorers at the position: Thirteen guys make both lists, and No. 21 on the drafted list was DeSean Jackson, so I'm calling it 14. That's 67 percent.
...
They are also scarcer. Last season, there were 11 wide receivers in the top 50 and only 23 in the top 100.
...
There are only a handful of elite guys at this position. You need one or ideally two of them. And by waiting on running backs, you can do that.
...
There are more running backs that get yardage in a more consistent manner than wideouts that can do the same. And many of those running backs will be available later than the top couple of rounds.
...
And that's the crux of this year's Manifesto. We're devaluing running backs and we're grabbing a ton of them. Quantity, not quality, kids.
...
Bottom line? Take two elite receivers early. By early, I mean two in the first four rounds. You need to get one of big eight quarterbacks, and hopefully you can land one of the big two (Brees or Rodgers).
[ July 11, 2010, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
The reason we drafted both main event teams last year this way is because the data from 2008 also supported the same conclusions. Until the NFL relaxes some recent rules that favor WRs and until RBBC goes away - IOW, as long as it's still a passing league - I don't see this changing. I'm not making the mistake of paying for last year's stats on certain players (a common mistake). Rather, I've identified positional tiers that have the most busts and we want to avoid. Venture into these tiers at your own risk (and obviously some folks prefer the high risk/reward option).
As for your #2 above, please post ALL of the mid-late round WRs you've drafted in all main events as long as you've been in the NFFC. Then we can see just how accurate you've really been. I maintain that most people have selective memory w/ this sort of thing - they remember the occasional hits and ignore the misses. For instance, yes, we drafted Steve Smith (NYG) in round 8 last year; but we also took Justin Gage, Bobby Engram and Ronald Curry too.
Interestingly, ESPN's Matthew Berry, in his Draft Day Manifesto, seems to agree (though I know he's just another man's opnion, yet he also backs it up w/ stats):
I sort of feel that way with running backs this year. You're paying too much for role and opportunity when there's a very good chance what you paid for could vanish into thin air.
...
My basic take is that if you can't get at least one of the elite, non-committee running backs, you can wait on that position. You will have to mix and match, playing the matchup game during the season, but it's not a season-killer if you don't get a 20-touches-a-game back.
...
More than half of those 15 (Ray Rice, Thomas Jones, Ricky Williams, Joseph Addai, Jonathan Stewart, Jamaal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall and Cedric Benson) were drafted in the fourth round or later, if at all, last season.
...
By devaluing running backs, it allows you to use resources elsewhere to dominate at other positions. Like at quarterback. There's a steep drop-off this year among quarterbacks after the top seven (Brees, Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, Schaub, Romo, Rivers) and I'll throw Favre in there if he comes back (which he will). Ideally, you get one of those eight.
...
What about wide receivers? In this column last year I talked about needing elite wideouts in the first few rounds, and ideally two of them in the first three rounds. Well, other than Calvin Johnson (cough), the wideouts were a fairly consistent bunch.
...
Check out the top 20 wideouts drafted and the top 20 scorers at the position: Thirteen guys make both lists, and No. 21 on the drafted list was DeSean Jackson, so I'm calling it 14. That's 67 percent.
...
They are also scarcer. Last season, there were 11 wide receivers in the top 50 and only 23 in the top 100.
...
There are only a handful of elite guys at this position. You need one or ideally two of them. And by waiting on running backs, you can do that.
...
There are more running backs that get yardage in a more consistent manner than wideouts that can do the same. And many of those running backs will be available later than the top couple of rounds.
...
And that's the crux of this year's Manifesto. We're devaluing running backs and we're grabbing a ton of them. Quantity, not quality, kids.
...
Bottom line? Take two elite receivers early. By early, I mean two in the first four rounds. You need to get one of big eight quarterbacks, and hopefully you can land one of the big two (Brees or Rodgers).
[ July 11, 2010, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
Be wary of these so called "experts", Mike (especially Matthew Berry, as I think he is a joke!)
The majority of time an "expert" has played in the NFFC, they have not done well AT ALL.
The majority of time an "expert" has played in the NFFC, they have not done well AT ALL.
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
I understand and more often than not, I think Berry's a baffoon (albeit, mildly entertaining). But in this case, I wholeheartedly agree with him and I understand that not everyone else will.
But when guys like Yates won the Classic in '08 by drafting 3 WRs in the first 3 rounds, and we won two main events last year waiting on RBs til the 4th... I think it's quite a valid strategy.
To each their own, of course.
[ July 11, 2010, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
But when guys like Yates won the Classic in '08 by drafting 3 WRs in the first 3 rounds, and we won two main events last year waiting on RBs til the 4th... I think it's quite a valid strategy.
To each their own, of course.
[ July 11, 2010, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
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Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
I have to agree with snakes strategy.
Ive done my homework and crunched the numbers i would optimally like to draft two rbs with my top 3 piks. Its simple math 32 starting rbs compared to 64 starting wrs. There is a greater chance of getting a quality wr later. This strtegy has worked for me in the past by getting guys like Galloway, Engram later than rnd 9. Or identifying breakout wides in rnds 5-8. My first year in the classic I drafted Fitz in the 5th rnd and galloway in the 12th and won my league.
I must also add that my strategy from last year to this has greatly changed. I went wr,rb,wr last year and it worked in the amount of two online championship titles and also the regular season pts leader. I drafted R.moss, ChrisJ.welker, Rivers. I dont covet that strategy this year. Round 3 has better value at RB. RB is the hardest position to fill on a ff roster. the higher you invest the more likely u r to hit. Rounds 5-8 should be good value for wrs this year.
Is RBBC a myth? I can remember duos like byner/mack, byner/riggs, ickey/brooks, hampton/anderson, thurman/davis, hector/mcneil, s.mitchell/e.ferrell, bo/allen, pinkety/white/highsmith, mack/metcalf. im sure there are many more. please come up with more i would like to see what you can come up with. I dont think a great deal has changed with how teams are using their RBs. The stats that RBs put up today are probably better than what Rbs did 10 or 15 years ago.
Ive done my homework and crunched the numbers i would optimally like to draft two rbs with my top 3 piks. Its simple math 32 starting rbs compared to 64 starting wrs. There is a greater chance of getting a quality wr later. This strtegy has worked for me in the past by getting guys like Galloway, Engram later than rnd 9. Or identifying breakout wides in rnds 5-8. My first year in the classic I drafted Fitz in the 5th rnd and galloway in the 12th and won my league.
I must also add that my strategy from last year to this has greatly changed. I went wr,rb,wr last year and it worked in the amount of two online championship titles and also the regular season pts leader. I drafted R.moss, ChrisJ.welker, Rivers. I dont covet that strategy this year. Round 3 has better value at RB. RB is the hardest position to fill on a ff roster. the higher you invest the more likely u r to hit. Rounds 5-8 should be good value for wrs this year.
Is RBBC a myth? I can remember duos like byner/mack, byner/riggs, ickey/brooks, hampton/anderson, thurman/davis, hector/mcneil, s.mitchell/e.ferrell, bo/allen, pinkety/white/highsmith, mack/metcalf. im sure there are many more. please come up with more i would like to see what you can come up with. I dont think a great deal has changed with how teams are using their RBs. The stats that RBs put up today are probably better than what Rbs did 10 or 15 years ago.
Be A CHAMPION in 2010 - BUCK THE TREND!
There's no way that today RBs, as a whole (not one or two) are putting up better #s than years ago.
I'd be interested in seeing the past few years of main event drafts from some folks (at least the first 3-6 rounds). I'd bet that about half of the RBs chosen in the first 3 rounds did not deliver what owners expected when they used such valuable picks on them.
We can all cite a couple mid-round players on which we hit. But that's only a very small part of the story, isn't it? And you cited your past success several years ago w/ Fitz/Galloway. How many other leagues did you employ this same strategy in since then and have you been as successful w/ them? RBs like Forte, Slaton, Westbrook, Turner, Barber, Tomlinson, RBrown, Portis, Ward, Lynch, KSmith, Jacobs all were taken in the first 3 rounds. Some unfortunate owners probably drafted TWO of these player in the first 3 rounds. Yes, hitting on a mid-round WR might help offset some of the damage, but not all of it.
So I completely disagree w/ this statement: "RB is the hardest position to fill on a ff roster. the higher you invest the more likely u r to hit." Yes, if you use an early round pick on a RB AND you hit (i.e. CJ last year, but not Forte, Slaton, etc. in the long list above), then you will get good production from him. But just investing an early pick on a RB doesn't make you "more likely to hit". Uh uh, quite the opposite actually. Plus, look how many RBs chosen from round 4 on produced BIG #s last year: Rice, TJones, RWilliams, Addai, Charles, Stewart, Mendenhall, FJackson, Benson, Moreno, Hightower. All finished in the top 20 of NFFC RBs last year. That's MORE THAN HALF.
[ July 11, 2010, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
I'd be interested in seeing the past few years of main event drafts from some folks (at least the first 3-6 rounds). I'd bet that about half of the RBs chosen in the first 3 rounds did not deliver what owners expected when they used such valuable picks on them.
We can all cite a couple mid-round players on which we hit. But that's only a very small part of the story, isn't it? And you cited your past success several years ago w/ Fitz/Galloway. How many other leagues did you employ this same strategy in since then and have you been as successful w/ them? RBs like Forte, Slaton, Westbrook, Turner, Barber, Tomlinson, RBrown, Portis, Ward, Lynch, KSmith, Jacobs all were taken in the first 3 rounds. Some unfortunate owners probably drafted TWO of these player in the first 3 rounds. Yes, hitting on a mid-round WR might help offset some of the damage, but not all of it.
So I completely disagree w/ this statement: "RB is the hardest position to fill on a ff roster. the higher you invest the more likely u r to hit." Yes, if you use an early round pick on a RB AND you hit (i.e. CJ last year, but not Forte, Slaton, etc. in the long list above), then you will get good production from him. But just investing an early pick on a RB doesn't make you "more likely to hit". Uh uh, quite the opposite actually. Plus, look how many RBs chosen from round 4 on produced BIG #s last year: Rice, TJones, RWilliams, Addai, Charles, Stewart, Mendenhall, FJackson, Benson, Moreno, Hightower. All finished in the top 20 of NFFC RBs last year. That's MORE THAN HALF.
[ July 11, 2010, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]