Originally posted by fflmaster:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.
This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.
ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.
They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.
This show is just going to be bad news. [/QUOTE]We have not been contacted by ESPN about this story. We have, in fact, reached out to our contacts at ESPN to let them know we are available for comments, background information, on-air interviews, anything they need from us. But still we haven't heard back from them. I've been interviewed on ESPN for other industry stories -- the licensing issue mainly -- and they sent crews to Iola to do the interviews, so it's not like they don't know about us. I just think they have the story they are working on and they have what they need.
I'd love to help, but it looks like ESPN has the story set already. I agree with Chad, whatever is reported is what needs to be out there because nobody is trying to hide anything and nobody is doing anything to get the players paid. Maybe this will help that process.
And take Jack's advice. Have a lawyer present in Georgia on Jan. 3rd's hearing. You need to be represented if you're one of the biggest creditors.
WCOFF bankruptcy
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Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36416
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by King of Queens:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quahogs:
Well the media went after Madoff himself and the security watchdogs to an extent and didn't take down the whole hedge fund investing community
So maybe there is hope here ?
Unfortunately, I see nothing good coming from this sort of media attention. The three most likely outcomes are one or more of the following:
1. Government intervention
2. Removal of fantasy sports carveout language from the UIGEA
3. Negative public perception regarding high stakes fantasy sports games and their operators
This show will bring the WCOFF saga to the mass public. Other than ensuring that the principals involved are never able to replicate their "efforts," I am struggling to see the positive aspects here. It was a tricky decision for me to be involved with it at all or not. The fact was that the story was going to happen though, with or without me. I decided that it was best to be involved so I could help shape the story to try and avoid the black eye as much as possible, even though it was hard to do, having been screwed by every company known to man, and some that aren't even known to man. It also could only help get the owners to do the right thing. But these scumballs don't care if their names are drug through the mud, so that obviously didn't happen.
The one positive is that people that watch will know they need to be careful. I think this can be looked at however you want. Is it good for the NFFC and FFPC? No, certainly not. Is it good that people are aware so they don't get screwed like me and so many others have? Probably so. So I do see that as a positive. As for goverment intervention and possible changing of laws. Quite frankly, who could argue that should happen with so many people getting money stolen.? Obviously I don't want that to happen, but I certainly couldn't argue them doing that with all that has taken place over the years.
P.S. Peter Pinto is a selfish ahole that didn't meet his obligations. And hopefully one day, he is forced to pay for this. I hope he is proud of himself. Because of him, this whole damn thing continues to be stressful and the gift that keeps on giving. He has plenty of money to do what is right and it would not affect him in any way. But he and I were obviously not raised the same way. [/QUOTE]Chad, I hope you know how badly everyone in this industry feels for you, Kevin Kirves, Tony Windis and others owed money. The three of you won national championships -- which is hard enough to do and stressful during the whole ride -- and either didn't get paid at all or didn't get paid in full. That SUCKS and it's just not right. But all three of you are owed six figures and you have every right to leave the space for good and never trust another game operator again.
That being said, I hope if red flags rise from this investigative piece they don't rise to the level where the government feels a need to step in and over-regulate. There already is a federal bill that says fantasy sports is a game of skill, so why should one faulty business change that? If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year. Who needs the government -- which isn't even close to balancing its own books -- involved in that?
There's plenty of blame to go around on who actually pulled the rug out from under the WCOFF players. But I think when the final creditor numbers are published, everyone will be flabbergasted. With a number that high, the defaulting of the business was inevitable unless someone was willing to bite a big chunk of change and obviously, Peter, Dustin and Jesse all were unable to do that in August. Losing money in another WCOFF or WCOFB season wasn't going to help anything; it would have just pushed the can down the road another season. What a shame.
quote:Originally posted by King of Queens:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quahogs:
Well the media went after Madoff himself and the security watchdogs to an extent and didn't take down the whole hedge fund investing community
So maybe there is hope here ?
Unfortunately, I see nothing good coming from this sort of media attention. The three most likely outcomes are one or more of the following:
1. Government intervention
2. Removal of fantasy sports carveout language from the UIGEA
3. Negative public perception regarding high stakes fantasy sports games and their operators
This show will bring the WCOFF saga to the mass public. Other than ensuring that the principals involved are never able to replicate their "efforts," I am struggling to see the positive aspects here. It was a tricky decision for me to be involved with it at all or not. The fact was that the story was going to happen though, with or without me. I decided that it was best to be involved so I could help shape the story to try and avoid the black eye as much as possible, even though it was hard to do, having been screwed by every company known to man, and some that aren't even known to man. It also could only help get the owners to do the right thing. But these scumballs don't care if their names are drug through the mud, so that obviously didn't happen.
The one positive is that people that watch will know they need to be careful. I think this can be looked at however you want. Is it good for the NFFC and FFPC? No, certainly not. Is it good that people are aware so they don't get screwed like me and so many others have? Probably so. So I do see that as a positive. As for goverment intervention and possible changing of laws. Quite frankly, who could argue that should happen with so many people getting money stolen.? Obviously I don't want that to happen, but I certainly couldn't argue them doing that with all that has taken place over the years.
P.S. Peter Pinto is a selfish ahole that didn't meet his obligations. And hopefully one day, he is forced to pay for this. I hope he is proud of himself. Because of him, this whole damn thing continues to be stressful and the gift that keeps on giving. He has plenty of money to do what is right and it would not affect him in any way. But he and I were obviously not raised the same way. [/QUOTE]Chad, I hope you know how badly everyone in this industry feels for you, Kevin Kirves, Tony Windis and others owed money. The three of you won national championships -- which is hard enough to do and stressful during the whole ride -- and either didn't get paid at all or didn't get paid in full. That SUCKS and it's just not right. But all three of you are owed six figures and you have every right to leave the space for good and never trust another game operator again.
That being said, I hope if red flags rise from this investigative piece they don't rise to the level where the government feels a need to step in and over-regulate. There already is a federal bill that says fantasy sports is a game of skill, so why should one faulty business change that? If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year. Who needs the government -- which isn't even close to balancing its own books -- involved in that?
There's plenty of blame to go around on who actually pulled the rug out from under the WCOFF players. But I think when the final creditor numbers are published, everyone will be flabbergasted. With a number that high, the defaulting of the business was inevitable unless someone was willing to bite a big chunk of change and obviously, Peter, Dustin and Jesse all were unable to do that in August. Losing money in another WCOFF or WCOFB season wasn't going to help anything; it would have just pushed the can down the road another season. What a shame.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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Cocktails and Dreams
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:00 pm
- Contact:
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by fflmaster:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.
This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.
ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.
They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.
This show is just going to be bad news. [/QU
OTE]
Disagree. If there is mention of the NFFC or FFPC why in the world would it be in a negative light? Makes no sense to me.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.
This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.
ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.
They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.
This show is just going to be bad news. [/QU
OTE]
Disagree. If there is mention of the NFFC or FFPC why in the world would it be in a negative light? Makes no sense to me.
WCOFF bankruptcy
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM.
[ December 09, 2011, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Todd Zola ]
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM.
[ December 09, 2011, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Todd Zola ]
"No one cares about your team but you."
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Todd Zola:
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM. after reading all of this todd makes very good sense. while wcoff deserves a good crack in the head , at the end of the day fantasy brings people to the tv to watch their shows and stats that they run across these games. espn is not going to cost itself money.
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM. after reading all of this todd makes very good sense. while wcoff deserves a good crack in the head , at the end of the day fantasy brings people to the tv to watch their shows and stats that they run across these games. espn is not going to cost itself money.
THIS IS THE BUSINESS WE HAVE CHOSEN
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thegambler
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:00 pm
WCOFF bankruptcy
doesn't anyone think that they might talk about people staying in their home leagues and not playing HSFF, since so many contest have gone under and stiffed people??? or maybe they might promote more of their (espn) free leagues???
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another....
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another....
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36416
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by thegambler:
doesn't anyone think that they might talk about people staying in their home leagues and not playing HSFF, since so many contest have gone under and stiffed people??? or maybe they might promote more of their (espn) free leagues???
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another.... Okay, we get it. Let's stop speculating on what ESPN "might" show and wait for the facts.
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry.
doesn't anyone think that they might talk about people staying in their home leagues and not playing HSFF, since so many contest have gone under and stiffed people??? or maybe they might promote more of their (espn) free leagues???
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another.... Okay, we get it. Let's stop speculating on what ESPN "might" show and wait for the facts.
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by THE_BLACKHAND:
quote:Originally posted by Todd Zola:
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM. after reading all of this todd makes very good sense. while wcoff deserves a good crack in the head , at the end of the day fantasy brings people to the tv to watch their shows and stats that they run across these games. espn is not going to cost itself money. [/QUOTE]ESPN could care less about hsff. They cater to the millions that play ff, of which the high stakes community is but a miniscule part and wouldn't affect their base at all. They go for the sensational and I'm afraid won't give a second thought about how it affects hsff. How many high stakes players care what the "experts" at ESPN say?
Besides which I can't imagine the average viewer being able to discern between the good operators and a wcoff. What they will see first is people lost money. Money that they legitimately won. And at least in the short term I fear it will turn people off to the hsff industry.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Zola:
Personally, I am counting on ESPN being cognizant and respectful of how much cash fantasy sports generates for their company and therefore not trashing the industry as a whole, but focusing on one specific (small) portion of it, perhaps even emoting sympathy for those involved as opposed to denigrating the industry.
By cash generation, i am not only talking about the fantasy games directly, but even more so that they know darned well the popularity of half of their shows are because of the information provided to the fantasy player, disguised as "Sunday NFL Countdown" or "Baseball Tonight." Not to mention, you cannot tell me the ratings of the NFL and MLB (they obviously carry both) are not positively influenced by fantasy.
My money is on ESPN being very careful of biting the hand that feeds them when there are so many other vehicles to garner info, such as both the NFL and MLB having their own networks plus SiriusXM. after reading all of this todd makes very good sense. while wcoff deserves a good crack in the head , at the end of the day fantasy brings people to the tv to watch their shows and stats that they run across these games. espn is not going to cost itself money. [/QUOTE]ESPN could care less about hsff. They cater to the millions that play ff, of which the high stakes community is but a miniscule part and wouldn't affect their base at all. They go for the sensational and I'm afraid won't give a second thought about how it affects hsff. How many high stakes players care what the "experts" at ESPN say?
Besides which I can't imagine the average viewer being able to discern between the good operators and a wcoff. What they will see first is people lost money. Money that they legitimately won. And at least in the short term I fear it will turn people off to the hsff industry.
You'll be fine long as your pretty face holds out, then it's gonna get pretty cold out...
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thegambler
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:00 pm
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by thegambler:
doesn't anyone think that they might talk about people staying in their home leagues and not playing HSFF, since so many contest have gone under and stiffed people??? or maybe they might promote more of their (espn) free leagues???
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another.... Okay, we get it. Let's stop speculating on what ESPN "might" show and wait for the facts.
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry. [/QUOTE]dude, again with the quick judgement....wow, just giving my opionion like everyone else on here. sorry if i'm not saying exactly what you want to hear.
quote:Originally posted by thegambler:
doesn't anyone think that they might talk about people staying in their home leagues and not playing HSFF, since so many contest have gone under and stiffed people??? or maybe they might promote more of their (espn) free leagues???
i would think they would talk about all the HSFF leagues that have gone out of business recently and stiffed people. and if they are talking about HSFF leagues why wouldn't they talk about the two big boys left? not saying it would be negative but i still think they are mentioned one way or another.... Okay, we get it. Let's stop speculating on what ESPN "might" show and wait for the facts.
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry. [/QUOTE]dude, again with the quick judgement....wow, just giving my opionion like everyone else on here. sorry if i'm not saying exactly what you want to hear.
WCOFF bankruptcy
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year.
i didn't play there this year, but does anyone know if the FFPC is continuing with their practice of NOT issuing 1099's for prize money that winners choose to "roll over"?
If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year.
i didn't play there this year, but does anyone know if the FFPC is continuing with their practice of NOT issuing 1099's for prize money that winners choose to "roll over"?