WCOFF bankruptcy

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:56 am

Originally posted by Sack:
One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. It isn't a small thing at all. It is a big thing and one that I am surprised hasn't been talked about more. Especially an event like the 25k platinum league. The main reason for me not playing the damn thing in the first place was a few red flags here and there. That is a lot of money to pay when you don't have complete trust in them. At the end of the day, I thought they were just poor business guys but not thieves, but was told time and time again that they have deep pockets and can shrug off hits easily(like losing a lot of money in baseball) to grow their brand. This was a flatout out lie and they talked me into taking the last 25k spot when I got out to Vegas.

Since it was sort of last second and I didn't necessarily want that high of variance in any one league, I sold 11k of it off to investors that would just be investing in that league only. So my portfolio group has the other 14k. When they screwed me I payed back those guys their 11k as I am not about to let someone get freerolled due to me. So I end up losing 11k more than was even freaking possible in the first place due to these losers.

But back to the point, everyone that put in 25k in that league only to see people get screwed like that should certainly **** them all off big time. I think Purple Helmets got paid for 3rd for some reason, but Cary Katz and I got nothing. That league is as simple as it gets. Everyone kicks in 25k they make a shitload of money on it and should easily have it available to pay at the end. Where in the hell did my 150k go? It is inexplicable and complete bullshit. Everyone that played in it should be irate, win or lose.

How in the world can I give them 48k in entry fees and they don't pay me a penny of it while randomly paying others in full? That is bullshit as well. At least AFFL was sort of an equal opportunity screwing. Cannot even get people their entry fees back while paying others in full? And then what really pisses me off is the 10k gridiron league where they flat out stole about 2k from me. They never refunded my overpay that was explicitly stated in the rules. It truly makes me sick and literally has made me feel ill and not well for about 9 months running now. Truly the gift that keeps on giving and there are only a few people that can do anything about it and they don't care about anyone or anything. Jesse James Herron, Dustin Ashby, Hartley Blaha and especially Peter Pinto.

You cannot have a business model that is set up to grow the brand into a world series of poker like event, with funds to be injected by the investors and use our money to fund these things and then not replentish the cookie jar when needed because the hotheaded owners get in a fight. It is bullshit and I hope like hell Chris Banks is going to battle his ass off for us and win this thing. He will get a big tip from me if he does. I just want these douchebags to pay. It is tough for me to understand how they can even look at themselves in the mirror after all of this. The corporate veil must be pierced and then open season on these guys. Financially and personally. There is nothing that will stop me from making that happen when I was in a position of giving them 48 grand with absolutely no chance of ever seeing it again since they knew they did not have the money at that time. It is completely criminal to take 48k or even 500 bucks from someone with no intent on ever being able to pay it back. That has to be fraudulent. And is sure as hell has to be fraudulent to take in money for a baseball game AFTER this happened sure as hell knowing they couldn't pay anybody.

Sorry for venting. Need to once in a while when my blood starts boiling and seeing these bastards name on the creditors list certainly doesn't reduce the boiling, nor does thinking about what could be done with that 266k they screwed me out of.

[ December 10, 2011, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:33 am

Wow, feel free to vent here anytime Chad. That story has me peeved for ya. Unbelievable that 12 folks paid $25,000 each for the Platinum league and out of $300,000 they paid $25,000 in prizes. That's just flat out criminal. You won $150,000 from that one league and instead wound up losing $25,000 from it. Just amazing.

It is extremely odd how some folks got paid some money and others never heard from them. Some asked for winnings early and still didn't get paid. It made no sense. In your case, you waited and waited for your baseball winnings from 2010, got paid part of that yet nothing from WCOFF Platinum. Why?

It's just a shame for everyone involved. I know this has affected your health and views on the industry, so use these boards as a couch if it helps at all. Vent anytime you want, at them, at our industry, at whatever helps. But more than anything we do hope that Chris Banks helps you, Tony, Kevin and others in this civil suit. Someone was responsible for paying the prizes and hopefully a court will make someone do just that.

[ December 10, 2011, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Jersey Dawg · Post by **Jersey Dawg** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:24 am

[/qb][/QUOTE]This hits the nail on the head - I feel sorry for the guy who is hassled by family, (specifically wife), about plucking down the money. Then wins a signifacant prize, celebrates the event with a wonderful "See I told you so!" moment where he tell his people he just cashed in a big prize.... Only to have it all come crashing down on him when he does not get paid -

Crushing.... utterly crushing.....

W [/QB][/quote]

That's a huge part of the problem. Most of us that play do so with our family and friends "in the know". When we win some money, like I just did for most points in my Primetime league, we share that news with our family and friends. We start making plans on what bills to pay or how much more we can spend on Christmas "knowing" the winnings will arrive soon. Then they don't.... Nobody can tell you excactly how that feels.

Pete

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:26 am

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by Sack:
One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. It isn't a small thing at all. It is a big thing and one that I am surprised hasn't been talked about more. Especially an event like the 25k platinum league. The main reason for me not playing the damn thing in the first place was a few red flags here and there. That is a lot of money to pay when you don't have complete trust in them. At the end of the day, I thought they were just poor business guys but not thieves, but was told time and time again that they have deep pockets and can shrug off hits easily(like losing a lot of money in baseball) to grow their brand. This was a flatout out lie and they talked me into taking the last 25k spot when I got out to Vegas.

Since it was sort of last second and I didn't necessarily want that high of variance in any one league, I sold 11k of it off to investors that would just be investing in that league only. So my portfolio group has the other 14k. When they screwed me I payed back those guys their 11k as I am not about to let someone get freerolled due to me. So I end up losing 11k more than was even freaking possible in the first place due to these losers.

But back to the point, everyone that put in 25k in that league only to see people get screwed like that should certainly **** them all off big time. I think Purple Helmets got paid for 3rd for some reason, but Cary Katz and I got nothing. That league is as simple as it gets. Everyone kicks in 25k they make a shitload of money on it and should easily have it available to pay at the end. Where in the hell did my 150k go? It is inexplicable and complete bullshit. Everyone that played in it should be irate, win or lose.

How in the world can I give them 48k in entry fees and they don't pay me a penny of it while randomly paying others in full? That is bullshit as well. At least AFFL was sort of an equal opportunity screwing. Cannot even get people their entry fees back while paying others in full? And then what really pisses me off is the 10k gridiron league where they flat out stole about 2k from me. They never refunded my overpay that was explicitly stated in the rules. It truly makes me sick and literally has made me feel ill and not well for about 9 months running now. Truly the gift that keeps on giving and there are only a few people that can do anything about it and they don't care about anyone or anything. Jesse James Herron, Dustin Ashby, Hartley Blaha and especially Peter Pinto.

You cannot have a business model that is set up to grow the brand into a world series of poker like event, with funds to be injected by the investors and use our money to fund these things and then not replentish the cookie jar when needed because the hotheaded owners get in a fight. It is bullshit and I hope like hell Chris Banks is going to battle his ass off for us and win this thing. He will get a big tip from me if he does. I just want these douchebags to pay. It is tough for me to understand how they can even look at themselves in the mirror after all of this. The corporate veil must be pierced and then open season on these guys. Financially and personally. There is nothing that will stop me from making that happen when I was in a position of giving them 48 grand with absolutely no chance of ever seeing it again since they knew they did not have the money at that time. It is completely criminal to take 48k or even 500 bucks from someone with no intent on ever being able to pay it back. That has to be fraudulent. And is sure as hell has to be fraudulent to take in money for a baseball game AFTER this happened sure as hell knowing they couldn't pay anybody.

Sorry for venting. Need to once in a while when my blood starts boiling and seeing these bastards name on the creditors list certainly doesn't reduce the boiling, nor does thinking about what could be done with that 266k they screwed me out of. [/QUOTE]Chad,

I think the fact that you were "supportive" of them (and I totally understand why), and weren't "rocking the boat"/threatening a lawsuit, etc. they simply took advantage of you.

It goes totally against how we teach children and how we should treat each other as adults ('the golden rule") Basically the "squeaky wheels" got paid, where the people who were publicly optimistic about the situation got royally screwed. All the people involved in this WCOFF scam will "get theirs" someday.......I truly believe that.

I truly hope you (and everyone else involved) get everything you earned.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:52 am

Yeah you are probably right Billy. It was a fine line on how to proceed. I wanted to try and do what was best to get myself and all others paid. Putting them into bankruptcy I decided was not likely to get that done. It was so close to getting worked out, but too many lies screwed up too many deals that were "done" until they all of a sudden weren't. Close but no cigar. I also didn't find it all that likely that they would be able to simply write me out a 266k check to shut me up.

[ December 10, 2011, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

fflmaster · Post by **fflmaster** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:04 pm

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by fflmaster:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.

This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.

ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.

They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.

This show is just going to be bad news. [/QU

OTE]

Disagree. If there is mention of the NFFC or FFPC why in the world would it be in a negative light? Makes no sense to me. [/QUOTE]I know people think that the FFPC and the NFFC are never going to have anything mentioned that is negative.

I agree both SHOULD be mentioned in a positive light, but that doesn't sell newspapers, magazines or tv shows.

Negativity sells.

My guess is that the NFFC is mentioned that it once was owned by Fanball. That Fanball went out of business, but did pay its winners before it closed.

My guess is the FFPC is mentioned only as a league that was formed by players of the WCOFF when people became scared of where the company was heading.

If neither company is mentioned at all then that is also bad. The only thing the public non-current player will know is how dangerous it is to play HSFF and how most have gone under.

How would that help either the FFPC or NFFC to recruit new players?

However, maybe the entire story will be about how big fantasy football has become. With a small mention of the WCOFF and the dangers of the HSFF.

That would be the best case senario. If the story isn't about HSFF at all and mostly about the big business of fantasy football.

alanr824 · Post by **alanr824** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:05 pm

Chad brings up a point and I am not sure if anyone has brought this up... You cannot declare bankruptcy if you have committed fraud to obtain the debt.

Accordingly, Section 523(a)(2)(A) of the Bankruptcy Code EXCEPTS from discharge in bankruptcy "any debt . . . for money, property, services, or an extension, renewal, or refinancing of credit, to the extent obtained by . . . false pretenses, a false representation, or actual fraud."
11 U.S.C. § 523(a)(2)(A).

I am not so sure this bankruptcy will happen. Make sure as many of you as possible have representation at the hearing and make sure "fraud" is the main bone of contention.

fflmaster · Post by **fflmaster** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Originally posted by The Yellow Line is Unofficial:
quote:Originally posted by fflmaster:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
quote:Originally posted by felixflamingo:
You know it isn't representative of the entire industry. We (kinda) know it isn't. But with 5-6 major contests pulling this crap in 6 years and how many left? 3-4 reputable ones? FFPC, NFFC, the new CDM maybe?
It's possible the media won't see it that way. That's definitely a concern. Hopefully, those not owed money who were interviewed by ESPN stressed exactly what Greg posted - that this is not an example of an industry gone bad, but rather an example of poor business dooming a great entity. [/QUOTE]Tom and Greg, my guess is that since you haven't mentioned anything about being interviewed that you were not.

This story is GOING to paint a very bad picture on fantasty sports and most importantly an even WORSE picture on hsff.

ESPN isn't going to just simply put on a show about one or a few default leagues. They are going to trash the entire prospect of hsff.

They are most likely going to show how big fantasy sports is and that even ESPN has a show and a web site for fantasy football. However, they are going to blast the hsff and I don't think the FFPC or the NFFC will be mentioned in any kind of good light.

This show is just going to be bad news. [/QUOTE]This is a pretty funny post considering it comes from the same person who posted on this board and I quote. "I think a lawsuit against ESPN and Suzy Kolber personally would get the attention necessary."

Which way is the wind blowing today, Al? [/QUOTE]Yellow, you need to think sometimes before you post.

Where in my post do I say ESPN should not STILL be involved in any lawsuit.

MAYBE JUST MAYBE, ESPN was looking at the possible liability and "bad light" shown on them as Scott Atkins stated, that this story was created to hopefully get them out of any possible legal action. They want to seperate themselves maybe.

Think my man.

[ December 10, 2011, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: fflmaster ]

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:41 pm

Originally posted by fflmaster:

Negativity sells.

My guess is that the NFFC is mentioned that it once was owned by Fanball. That Fanball went out of business, but did pay its winners before it closed.

My guess is the FFPC is mentioned only as a league that was formed by players of the WCOFF when people became scared of where the company was heading. Neither of those statements cast our event or FFPC in a negative light so I'm curious as to why you continue to believe that will be the case. There is absolutely no connection whatsoever between how we and FFPC run our businesses and how WCOFF ran theirs. The only connection is all three of us competed in the high-stakes space. That's it. If the purpose of the piece is to say all high-stakes entities are corrupt then not only will the piece be rather ignorant but it will be factually incorrect. I doubt ESPN is going to do a piece like this without having all of their ducks in a row.

Again, I can't conceive of a single negative thing that could be put in the piece about us or FFPC. If we are mentioned, one would hope it would be in the context that there remain high-quality and reputable games in this space for fantasy players to choose. Otherwise, my guess is there won't be much mention, if any, of either event.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:47 pm

Yep, that is how it will go down Tom.