Why do most leagues still use a DST and K?

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:48 pm

Is it just because people feel like, “Well, there are DST and kicking plays in the NFL, so why not reward them?”? Or is it just because every league we’ve ever been in has them, so we don’t question them? Maybe it’s time to take a closer look at how much we reward them in comparison to other positions, and either adjust their scoring or eliminate them altogether? Of course, if people might not admit it, but actually like wildcards in order to increase mostly-random luck, then this is a moot point.

Before anyone assumes that this is just sour grapes for us not having benefited from DSTs and Ks, in our 7 managed [non-DC] leagues:
• Our DSTs were: NYJ (6th), BAL (1st), TEN (8th), HOU (5th), BAL (1st), TEN (8th) and BAL (1st). So we’ve admittedly gotten lucky plenty of times with these.
• Our kickers were: Gould (4th), Bironas (13th), Gould (4th), Janikowski (7th), Bironas (13th), Hanson (12th) and Gostkowski (8th). Though our kickers weren’t the best, they ranged from good to average to below average.

Using NFFC 14-team league scoring data through 13 weeks, ignoring QBs, some observations:

1. IMO, DST and K are just like playing poker with wildcards – a way for fantasy teams to pad their scores without much skill or thought, seeing most owners wait until after round 9 or 10 to even start drafting the top DSTs and much longer even to draft kickers (often the last couple of rounds).

2. The top 14 DST scored 100-153 and the top 14 kickers scored 103-145.

3. DST
a. Compared to the best starting fantasy DST, which scored 153 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 12
• WRs: 18
• TEs: 5
b. Compared to the median starting fantasy DST, which scored 112.5 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 29
• WRs: 41
• TEs: 14
*** That's just 84 position players (plus 32 QBs) who scored more than a DST that was drafted around 180th!
c. Compared to the worst starting fantasy DST, which scored 100 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 30
• WRs: 50
• TEs: 20

4. K
a. Compared to the best starting fantasy K, which scored 145 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 14
• WRs: 22
• TEs: 5
b. Compared to the median starting fantasy K, which scored 117.5 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 26
• WRs: 40
• TEs: 12
*** That's just 78 position players (plus 32 QBs) who scored more than a kicker that was drafted around 207th!
c. Compared to the worst starting fantasy K, which scored 103 points, the number of positional players who scored at least that much:
• RBs: 30
• WRs: 48
• TEs: 20

Only half of the DSTs in the top 14 were drafted among the top 14; three were drafted after 25th.
Only 6 of the top 14 kickers were drafted among the top 14; two were drafted after 25th and two were even free agents.

Though this volatility is similar to most of the other positions, the big difference is that almost every owner drafts all of their positional starters before a DST and most of their bench even before a kicker. Obviously, fantasy players understand the unpredictability and unreliability of these positions.

So is it really a good idea to continue to so greatly reward these positions with the same or more points as such a large number of starting positional players? IMO, we spend the vast majority of our time building and managing our teams around the positional players, with DST a slight afterthought and kickers a distant afterthought. And most of us struggle each week with trying to find that right RB2 or WR3 or flex that we hope can get us a reliable 10-12 points or more. Meanwhile, DSTs and kickers that were drafted much later routinely score just as much – just like wildcards in poker. Is it time to reconsider?

[ December 06, 2011, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

boutrous11 · Post by **boutrous11** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:01 pm

i hate using defenses, i got rid of them in my home league a long time ago...

kickers? i don't know why, but i'd be opposed to getting rid of them...

Jersey Dawg · Post by **Jersey Dawg** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:11 pm

If the kicker position went away I would do the happy dance. I just don't get how having a lucky kicker shows any skill at all. In two of my losses this season my 9 other position players outscored the guys my opponent drafted. But in one game his kicker scored over 21 and in the other over 16. Is that a skill when it comes to drafting? No.

Defense, that I can understand. Some teams are downright nasty and never give up points. Some are sack machines. Some have great return men. I can see some valid point in drafting that position and spending waiver wire money on one that has a seemingly great matchup.

Kickers - please do away with this position or at least make it real. Since when is a fiedl goal worth 5 points just because it is long?

Pete

[ December 06, 2011, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Jersey Dawg ]

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Originally posted by Jersey Dawg:
Since when is a fiedl goal worth 5 points just because it is long?

Pete As someone who targeted David Akers in nearly every league I'm in I happen to love the kicker position this season.

I'm only half-joking about that. I think a guy like Akers is a great example of how targeting the right kicker can pay big dividends. Akers' leg strength has been huge for a team like the 49ers, which struggles in the Red Zone so I think rewarding his fantasy owners for that ability is fine as well. If Akers has more value in the NFL than an ordinary kicker (and I believe he does) than I think it's fair to afford him more value in fantasy as well.

As far as defenses go, I like having them because it allows your team to receive production from another area besides offensive ability. It can be frustrating trying to find a decent defense week-in and week-out (especially this season) but it's always fun when you hit on the right one.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:14 pm

Getting a decent kicker isn't rocket science.....

HINT:
it's the same reason Phil Dawson, Josh Scobee, Ryan Succop, Graham Gano, etc. are ALWAYS on your waiver wire.

While I don't reach for a kicker, I'm also not one to ALWAYS wait on one for the last round.

Sure, I have been burned by the 20 point kicker, but there is some skill in selecting the right one. Honestly, since they rarely get injured, there is probably more skill in picking that position than many others!! (sans Nate Kaeding) .

As for defenses, there is no doubt that some are generally better than others. My biggest complaint with them is that your defense gets penalized when your OFFENSE commits a turnover and the opposing team returns it for a TD.

I would LOVE to see that somehow get changed.

Chi_Town_FEW · Post by **Chi_Town_FEW** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:15 am

Sorry to revisit this so late, but I like the kicker and defense. In a 14 team format every starting spot is worth a lot. Akers was available in a lot of leagues on the wavier wire this year. If you are aggressive in those categories it can pay dividends. Joe Treffiletti's K and Def were worth 91 points in the championship round. George Melbrod's were worth 56.4. Joe won $100,00 grand by 27.27 points. Difference between K's and Def's, for Joe over George, 34.6.
I think they can help win a championship for sure. Ask Joe.

[ December 30, 2011, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Chi_Town_FEW ]

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:29 am

Thank you for making my point. Akers did help many teams this year. He was the 17th drafted NFFC kicker, with ADP of round 17.

Why exactly do we want to keep rewarding such random unpredictable luck?

mattjb · Post by **mattjb** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:42 am

Mike,

Your posts this year seem determined to prove that much of this game we love is luck. Literally every time you post it's to make this point. Yet the fact that we see the likes of Jules winning her 4th title show that luck is just a small part. You love your numbers (and I love what you kindly provide for the board) but at times I think you'd like to be declared the winner in August because your numbers show you drafted the best team. There is skill to picking a defense and kicker just like the other positions. Maybe we're not very good at it (Akers & the SF D show that) but free agency is a skill too, not just who you get but how much you bid.

Right - back to drinking.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:14 pm

Originally posted by Sandman62:
Thank you for making my point. Akers did help many teams this year. He was the 17th drafted NFFC kicker, with ADP of round 17.

Why exactly do we want to keep rewarding such random unpredictable luck?

Mike, what was Cam Newton's ADP among QBs on Draft Day? Was that random luck to land him as your starting QB? Was there more strategy in landing Newton in the 20th round rather than Akers in FAAB? They both involved a little skill and let's admit a lot of luck.

The NFFC isn't doing away with individual kickers, bonus points for long field goals or defenses. Sorry.

bockman1 · Post by **bockman1** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:55 pm

I do not mind kickers but hate defense as is is scored. 15 years ago we went to defenses based on how many points they give up and never looked back. After all that is what counts points allowed. You can then rate and handicap them just like any other position or play matchups. Please give this a try you will not regret this. It also alowed us to give points only (No yardage) for punt returns ect if you had that player in your line up, Sproles or Hester ect you got the 6 points.