AFFL and Question to the NFFC

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:28 pm

Originally posted by King of Queens:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
In 1999, we started the Fantasy Sports Players Association to protect fantasy players who were getting ripped off by our industry partners. The Replica Corporation had just gone bankrupt and a lot of players were out tens of thousands of dollars. Twelve of the biggest companies in the industry formed the FSPA to protect the industry and to promote the awareness of fantasy sports. Through the years, we became the FSTA as the need to protect the consumer lessened. Well, we're needed again as this is a bad one. Greg, the AFFL website has the FSTA logo on its homepage. I believe they are/were a member. To me, this is a black eye for the FSTA as well. [/QUOTE]Of course it is. As you know, I'm no longer actively involved with the FSTA, but Neil was a member of the association and he attended past conferences with his wife and the FSTA even had him speak two weeks ago in Denver on a high-stakes panel. I did not attend or speak, but Neil was front and center courtesy of the FSTA.

Neil didn't start this business to rip anyone off and he paid his prizes on time for the past four years or so. There were no signs that this was going to be the company that gave the FSTA or the high-stakes market or the fantasy sports industry in general the black eye and raised red flags for the government. He was never licensed by the NFLPA like I've been for four years and nobody ever shut him down or tried to. He ran a business that this year took in $350,000, a nice business.

Unfortunately, as I told you last year, the high-stakes market has the potential to be the Wild, Wild West and while more companies didn't come in to compete with us last year, you saw how those companies that did tried to be the biggest. Neil expanded too far too fast and now it's cost him everything. He never should have taken on the back-end expense at all. Guaranteeing those high prizes was risky enough.

But you're also seeing contests merge the live drafts with online drafts, which is dangerous as well. Neil ran leagues that didn't fill and then sold the auto-pick teams on eBay. Dangerous again. At the FSTA conference, there was a guy on the panel who said he was going to start a contest with a $20,000 grand prize and a winner-take-all format. Now how crazy is that at a time like this? You don't think THAT would get Congress to look at this space differently?

These are buyer-beware times if you're playing fantasy games with sizeable pay models. Look under the hood. Test drive it if need be. Talk to the owners, right? Hell, I'm always accessible. Call me anytime if you want to learn more about me or our contests or our company. F+W was purchased for $500 million three years ago and has businesses in every field imaginable, so the NFFC isn't going anywhere and we're not scamming anybody out of $250 or $2,500. We're paying our prizes and working professionally just like we always have.

I feel bad for everyone, including Neil. He still believes he's going to find a way to get this right. I've talked to him in the last week; I know what he's thinking. I'm thinking with him. It's just tough, tough, tough now and everyone is getting hurt by this.

LFW · Post by **LFW** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:50 pm

Greg, you lost me on why a 20K winner take all contest is crazy. Is it better to pay out multiple places for fantasy regulation aspect? Or is it another reason I can't think of?

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:40 pm

Originally posted by Lightning Fast Whip:
Greg, you lost me on why a 20K winner take all contest is crazy. Is it better to pay out multiple places for fantasy regulation aspect? Or is it another reason I can't think of? I took that as offering only one big prize is like playing the lottery and someone out there (Congress) would no longer look at fantasy football as a "game of skill". That was just my perspective.

Here is an article from FantasyFanatics with comments from Neil and some customers who are owed money....

****://www.fantasyfanatics.com/index.php?fusea ... ticle=1424

[ February 26, 2008, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: BillyWaz ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:42 am

Originally posted by Lightning Fast Whip:
Greg, you lost me on why a 20K winner take all contest is crazy. Is it better to pay out multiple places for fantasy regulation aspect? Or is it another reason I can't think of? Well, the key to making fantasy sports legal is the skill vs. luck factor. There's no question that a game like that if run over a full NFL season is a game of skill, but the winner-take-all aspect would likely raise some eyebrows. Does luck overweight skill in a Week 16 winner-take-all format for about $200,000?

Secondly, PayDay Sports has tried a higher level game at $10,000 per team and had trouble getting multiple leagues. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if it does get done I'd probably put my faith in a major media web site that has traffic to millions of potential players rather than an individual businessman who has no major outlets to draw in players outside of buying industry ads. Just my two cents after seeing what happened with AFFL.

Again, this may look good to you and you're more than welcome to jump in if it gets off the ground. For me, it's a buyer-beware market today. It's also a business-beware market because the quick hit business models of making a lot of money off higher priced games is the tougher model. Building from the ground up is the way to go, if you ask me. But what the hell do I know.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:55 am

Originally posted by BillyWaz:
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Fast Whip:
Greg, you lost me on why a 20K winner take all contest is crazy. Is it better to pay out multiple places for fantasy regulation aspect? Or is it another reason I can't think of? I took that as offering only one big prize is like playing the lottery and someone out there (Congress) would no longer look at fantasy football as a "game of skill". That was just my perspective.

Here is an article from FantasyFanatics with comments from Neil and some customers who are owed money....

****://www.fantasyfanatics.com/index.php?fusea ... ticle=1424 [/QUOTE]One thing that Neil keeps stating that is factually wrong is that his business went bad due to the Anti-Internet Gambling Act. Nothing could be further from the truth. For years, we all guaranteed the prize money based on a set number of teams we felt we could get. WCOFF did that in 2002 when it debuted, guaranteeing $200,000 and its overall prize structure based on 600 teams. Lenny and Emil scrambled to get to 552, but at no point did they ever change the prize structure so that they could make money based on 552.

The NFBC and NFFC guaranteed $100,000 each season starting in 2004 and paid out in full even when we failed to come close to our target level of 300 and 350 teams, respectively. We felt, as did Lenny and Emil, that legally you had to guarantee your prizes and couldn't slide your payout structure based on the number of teams you got. We didn't need the law to tell us what the right thing was to do.

Neil and the AFFL did things differently before the Anti-Internet Gambling Act. He advertised a $200,000 grand prize, took signups based on his prize structure and then slid down to the number of teams he actually got, paying out $40,000 one year and a little more of that the next year. His options after the law went into effect was to pay in full based on the number of teams he expected to get or cancel the contests. He erred last year in not cancelling his $500 leagues and $1200 leagues. Plain and simple, he made the decision to continue based on the expenses he had accrued for his new back-end support system and the hope that he'd secure a loan later on rather than making the right decision that would have saved him over $125,000 in direct losses from those two contests.

He explains the problems that occurred and he still has hope that he will be able to resolve this. For everyone concerned, I hope it works out. But to blame the government for his problems is not right as we're all working under the same guidelines and all making different business decisions.

[ February 26, 2008, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Coltsfan · Post by **Coltsfan** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:22 am

I have a question - how good is this software system he has paid for? Has anybody seen it or used it?

Wayne

pizzatyme · Post by **pizzatyme** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:32 am

Good question Wayne. I'm not even sure it would be worth purchasing at this point, however. I;m not an attorney, but it seems like even if he sells the software and then doesn't get an investor, he still can't pay his debts, then bankruptcy is likely. If that were to happen, I think the court would go after the software purchaser to get the software back. As every person owed money would have a rightful claim to a piece of the proceeds of sale.

Example, if the software is worth ~$475,000, but it is sold for a lowball price of $200,000, then I'd think the court would not look kindly on that sale and get the product back.

But, I too wondered if the software was worth looking at from an NFFC/WCOFF perspective.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:29 am

Originally posted by ultimatefantasyfootballcheatsheets:
But, I too wondered if the software was worth looking at from an NFFC/WCOFF perspective. I have no familiarity with Neil's software. All I can say is that from our perspective and the WCOFF's perspective, it wouldn't be wise for us to invest in our own software when there are quality options out there to do our back-end support for a nominal fee. It's an expense I can budget for and plan for and make ends meet at the end of the day. At this time it makes no sense to create such an expense or even take on all of that responsibility when I can pay STATS to do that for me. WCOFF must feel the same way.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:32 am

Having played in the AFFL, (but knowing anything about software), I can tell you I don't personally see what the "hoopla" is all about.

For as much as we bitch about STATS (and many complaints are justified), the lineup process and even picking up free agents (which could be improved IMO) is FAR better than any other contest I have played in.

STATS has yet to "crash" like other sites, and it is pretty easily navigated, so I don't think there would be any use for Greg or Tom to purchase this software.

Again, maybe it does something I don't know, but for what it does for the PLAYER, I certainly don't see the hype.

Coltsfan · Post by **Coltsfan** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:43 am

Im not a big fan of stats. If I was to make a choice, I think the best fantasy football site myfanstayfootball.com.

Wayne