Originally posted by rkulaski:
Chargers crippled o-line. Run calling too predictable. LT not used on draws or in the passing game. All reasons by Renman why LT's stats were negatively affected. The blame here is on the entire Chargers' team BUT NOT LT. There's a reason why he's not used as much on draws or in the passing game. There is a reason for all of it and it's not because everyone around LT brought him down. It's because LT has come down. He's no longer what he was as a rb. LT scored td's from inside the 10 yd line? So yes he was still "productive" as a fantasy rb but he's still done. Agree with Tom here, he's a thinner version of Lendale White who was fortunate that he had so many chances to score on a great offense. Rkulaski,
Maybe you are right. Maybe LT did somehow sneak into the bedroom of a couple of his offensive linemans and tear some knee ligaments. Maybe he did convince the coaching staff to use him in a stunningly predictable way. Maybe he did volunteer not to be used in the screen game, on wheel routes, or on draws.
The few times he was used (later in the season) in the pass he was VERY productive. I am willing to bet he will show himself to be VERY productive in the post season as well.
I appreciate you telling me that "he is no longer what he was as an RB"... could you show me where I ever said he is the same RB as he used to be? As a matter of fact, I have said the exact opposite. But guys MAKE UP viewpoints I do not have here to support an argument.
I said for 2009 LT was NOT done, would be productive and ended up being proven right. Guys with a little integrity could come back and say "you know what, LT was productive this year... I have to admit it.." and be done with it. So when you say LT is "Done" this time, you are now talking about 2010 right?
L. Tomlinson debate
L. Tomlinson debate
4-d,
You are another one who can't admit when he was wrong and was PROVEN wrong... I said LT would be a "productive player the second half of the year and was NOT DONE." You rattling off his stats is what I expect from the typical fan who can't see a little deeper. Again, that is like me saying "miles austin stinks! Look at his numbers weeks 1-5..."
Many many many things add up to how productive a player is in the NFL. Informed football minds can see the bigger picture... typical fans can't and blindly look at stats. You mock him for 'falling forward' yet earlier in the season used the fact that in one game they struggled to score from the goaline and shockingly said it was LT's fault. So when he doesn't score, it is his lack of burst, vision and skill.. but when he does score, he just fell forward. Typical fan.
The funny thing is that I DON'T EVEN LIKE LT. There are things about him and his career that have turned me off over the years. I had him on TWREE TEAMS from 2004-2009 among all my fantasy teams. I rode this "done" RB to a league title this year in the WCOFF in part due to him being productive in the second half of the season.
But when I see guys yapping on a message board like the typical clowns I hear in sports bars I have no problem giving a differing opinion. If LT had floundered the remainder of the season.. had lost his job as the starting RB (Which he would have if he we DONE on a team like this with superbowl aspirations), had he gotten lots of wear and tear like injuries.. I would have been the first one here to say "hey.. you know what guys... I was wrong on LT this year and was wrong earlier this season when we debated it... You guys had it right and made a good call.. nice job."
Then again I have some sporting integrity ...
You are another one who can't admit when he was wrong and was PROVEN wrong... I said LT would be a "productive player the second half of the year and was NOT DONE." You rattling off his stats is what I expect from the typical fan who can't see a little deeper. Again, that is like me saying "miles austin stinks! Look at his numbers weeks 1-5..."
Many many many things add up to how productive a player is in the NFL. Informed football minds can see the bigger picture... typical fans can't and blindly look at stats. You mock him for 'falling forward' yet earlier in the season used the fact that in one game they struggled to score from the goaline and shockingly said it was LT's fault. So when he doesn't score, it is his lack of burst, vision and skill.. but when he does score, he just fell forward. Typical fan.
The funny thing is that I DON'T EVEN LIKE LT. There are things about him and his career that have turned me off over the years. I had him on TWREE TEAMS from 2004-2009 among all my fantasy teams. I rode this "done" RB to a league title this year in the WCOFF in part due to him being productive in the second half of the season.
But when I see guys yapping on a message board like the typical clowns I hear in sports bars I have no problem giving a differing opinion. If LT had floundered the remainder of the season.. had lost his job as the starting RB (Which he would have if he we DONE on a team like this with superbowl aspirations), had he gotten lots of wear and tear like injuries.. I would have been the first one here to say "hey.. you know what guys... I was wrong on LT this year and was wrong earlier this season when we debated it... You guys had it right and made a good call.. nice job."
Then again I have some sporting integrity ...
-
GOD Loves You
- Posts: 2260
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:00 pm
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by Renman:
To look at how LT produced this year blindly by stats and not see the entire story is MISSING the bigger picture.
James, whether you want to admit it or not, your above statement is what most want YOU to realize.
Watch the games, IE not six at once, but rather a Bolts game only and you would've seen what many of us KNEW.....LT was no longer elite and if he were Gartrell Johnson, instead of LaDainian Tomlinson, he wouldn't have made the team.
Watching him play during the 08-09 season led many of us to believe he was basically done as an elite back. His play and numbers reinforced it, regardless of what you want to believe. He may have been relevant for fantasy purposes, but for the NFL, he was nothing more than a goal line back and not even a good one.....I don't care how many TD's he scored, he's no longer special in any phase, especially near the goal line. I think he'd have a hard time leaping over a stationary lineman in a 3-point stance.
Starting in 2002, LT's second season, he played in 80 regular season games, there were a mere 6 games where he didn't record a run over 10+ yards.....only 6 out of 80. During the 07 season, not a single game with a run less than 10 yards.
Take a look at the 16 games during the 08 season, he played in 6 where he didn't record a run over 10 yards, including a game where he received 26 carries, the most he attempted for the season.....a game the Chargers won by 19, his longest run was 5 yards.
7 seasons, 80 games, only 6 where he didn't record a rush over 10+ yards......08 season, 16 games, 6 in which he didn't record a run for more than 10 yards. If I never watched him play and only looked at these numbers, I would've concluded he lost a step, some explosiveness and was no longer elite. He was consistently busting off 45, 39, 62, 85 yard gains and then all of the sudden, he could barely run for 10+ yards during a single run.
Seriously, LT didn't have any juice to do anything with the ball this season, other than score short TD's. I wish I would've kept track of how many times he basically fell down attempting to burst through the hole, it was embarrassing. He seriously reminded me of Darren McFadden, unable to make anyone miss and easily tackled by the blades of grass.
I will agree with your 80% assessment, it was 80% due to how he was used, but the reason why he was used that way is because the Chargers realized what they had or should I say, no longer had.....he was utilized the way he should've been, if the offense was dominated by LT, the AFC West would've forfeited their playoff entry!
You couldn't have done a "told you so" because the "told you so" didn't truly occur....sure, for fantasy, you could, but many of your arguments seemed to revolve around LT the player, not the fantasy one.
Remember, this is coming from a person who watched LT play in college(instant fan) and from a Chargers fan who has watched LT play in just about every single game since he became a pro. There's no bias, other than what my eyes have shown me, along with a few stats to back up my sights argument.
Now if he comes back as Curtis Martin next season, then I will pat you on the back all season long, as well as be happy because I would know the Bolts are repeating as Super Bowl champs.
To look at how LT produced this year blindly by stats and not see the entire story is MISSING the bigger picture.
James, whether you want to admit it or not, your above statement is what most want YOU to realize.
Watch the games, IE not six at once, but rather a Bolts game only and you would've seen what many of us KNEW.....LT was no longer elite and if he were Gartrell Johnson, instead of LaDainian Tomlinson, he wouldn't have made the team.
Watching him play during the 08-09 season led many of us to believe he was basically done as an elite back. His play and numbers reinforced it, regardless of what you want to believe. He may have been relevant for fantasy purposes, but for the NFL, he was nothing more than a goal line back and not even a good one.....I don't care how many TD's he scored, he's no longer special in any phase, especially near the goal line. I think he'd have a hard time leaping over a stationary lineman in a 3-point stance.
Starting in 2002, LT's second season, he played in 80 regular season games, there were a mere 6 games where he didn't record a run over 10+ yards.....only 6 out of 80. During the 07 season, not a single game with a run less than 10 yards.
Take a look at the 16 games during the 08 season, he played in 6 where he didn't record a run over 10 yards, including a game where he received 26 carries, the most he attempted for the season.....a game the Chargers won by 19, his longest run was 5 yards.
7 seasons, 80 games, only 6 where he didn't record a rush over 10+ yards......08 season, 16 games, 6 in which he didn't record a run for more than 10 yards. If I never watched him play and only looked at these numbers, I would've concluded he lost a step, some explosiveness and was no longer elite. He was consistently busting off 45, 39, 62, 85 yard gains and then all of the sudden, he could barely run for 10+ yards during a single run.
Seriously, LT didn't have any juice to do anything with the ball this season, other than score short TD's. I wish I would've kept track of how many times he basically fell down attempting to burst through the hole, it was embarrassing. He seriously reminded me of Darren McFadden, unable to make anyone miss and easily tackled by the blades of grass.
I will agree with your 80% assessment, it was 80% due to how he was used, but the reason why he was used that way is because the Chargers realized what they had or should I say, no longer had.....he was utilized the way he should've been, if the offense was dominated by LT, the AFC West would've forfeited their playoff entry!
You couldn't have done a "told you so" because the "told you so" didn't truly occur....sure, for fantasy, you could, but many of your arguments seemed to revolve around LT the player, not the fantasy one.
Remember, this is coming from a person who watched LT play in college(instant fan) and from a Chargers fan who has watched LT play in just about every single game since he became a pro. There's no bias, other than what my eyes have shown me, along with a few stats to back up my sights argument.
Now if he comes back as Curtis Martin next season, then I will pat you on the back all season long, as well as be happy because I would know the Bolts are repeating as Super Bowl champs.
FAITH IS NOT BELIEVING THAT GOD CAN....
IT IS KNOWING THAT HE WILL
IT IS KNOWING THAT HE WILL
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by Renman:
4-d,
You are another one who can't admit when he was wrong and was PROVEN wrong... I said LT would be a "productive player the second half of the year and was NOT DONE." You rattling off his stats is what I expect from the typical fan who can't see a little deeper. Again, that is like me saying "miles austin stinks! Look at his numbers weeks 1-5..."
Umm, no, you said the following -
4D,
Numerous industry "experts" today touted how good LT looked last night (which is not overly relevant to me since I judge it by what I saw myself). They never had a "run out the clock" type of lead so I am not sure how they could be expected to "run him how they used to." Norv Turner explained why LT was out on the goaline on that ONE 3rd down play that got all the attention and it had nothing to do with the staff not believing in LT.
He showed good vision and burst against one of the best playing defenses in the NFL. Gruden thinks LT lost a step? wow.. who knew? I think LT lost a step. I think he may have lost 3 steps. But 75% of what LT was, in the 2009 fantasy football world where SO FEW RB's can be counted on to produce, is fine with me. I argued that LT will finish as a top 10 (and closer to top 5 in my opinion) RB from weeks 6 to 16.
I stand by that claim and expect him to produce going forward.
Hence my use of the week 6-16 stats, so please tell me what you have PROVEN. PROVEN DONE.
4-d,
You are another one who can't admit when he was wrong and was PROVEN wrong... I said LT would be a "productive player the second half of the year and was NOT DONE." You rattling off his stats is what I expect from the typical fan who can't see a little deeper. Again, that is like me saying "miles austin stinks! Look at his numbers weeks 1-5..."
Umm, no, you said the following -
4D,
Numerous industry "experts" today touted how good LT looked last night (which is not overly relevant to me since I judge it by what I saw myself). They never had a "run out the clock" type of lead so I am not sure how they could be expected to "run him how they used to." Norv Turner explained why LT was out on the goaline on that ONE 3rd down play that got all the attention and it had nothing to do with the staff not believing in LT.
He showed good vision and burst against one of the best playing defenses in the NFL. Gruden thinks LT lost a step? wow.. who knew? I think LT lost a step. I think he may have lost 3 steps. But 75% of what LT was, in the 2009 fantasy football world where SO FEW RB's can be counted on to produce, is fine with me. I argued that LT will finish as a top 10 (and closer to top 5 in my opinion) RB from weeks 6 to 16.
I stand by that claim and expect him to produce going forward.
Hence my use of the week 6-16 stats, so please tell me what you have PROVEN. PROVEN DONE.
You'll be fine long as your pretty face holds out, then it's gonna get pretty cold out...
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by GOD Loves You:
quote:Originally posted by Renman:
To look at how LT produced this year blindly by stats and not see the entire story is MISSING the bigger picture.
I will agree with your 80% assessment, it was 80% due to how he was used, but the reason why he was used that way is because the Chargers realized what they had or should I say, no longer had.....he was utilized the way he should've been [/QUOTE]Exactly.
Renman,
Yes, I'm saying LT was done LAST year. If all you are saying or ever said was LT would be productive after a slow start this year because he would score tds inside the 10 yd line playing on a great offense, then you were right. Big whoop. My point is that you make it sound like LT was the victim because of his surroundings in SD, and I think you have it backwards. He's fortunate that he was on a team that gave him the ball so many time inside the 10-yd line this year. Otherwise, I'd hate to see what those final stats - you call it productivity- would be. Good thing M Turner wasn't still the backup this year.
quote:Originally posted by Renman:
To look at how LT produced this year blindly by stats and not see the entire story is MISSING the bigger picture.
I will agree with your 80% assessment, it was 80% due to how he was used, but the reason why he was used that way is because the Chargers realized what they had or should I say, no longer had.....he was utilized the way he should've been [/QUOTE]Exactly.
Renman,
Yes, I'm saying LT was done LAST year. If all you are saying or ever said was LT would be productive after a slow start this year because he would score tds inside the 10 yd line playing on a great offense, then you were right. Big whoop. My point is that you make it sound like LT was the victim because of his surroundings in SD, and I think you have it backwards. He's fortunate that he was on a team that gave him the ball so many time inside the 10-yd line this year. Otherwise, I'd hate to see what those final stats - you call it productivity- would be. Good thing M Turner wasn't still the backup this year.
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Tom Kessenich
- Posts: 30094
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by Renman:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
He was this year's version of LenDale White.
The question I have is whether we'll see his production fall off the table next season the same way that White's did this season. The only differences being that White did not enter the season as one of the most prolific pass catching RB's in the history of the NFL, then suddenly not used in the passing game... He did not enter the season as the featured back on a top team playing in a weak division. White did not play behind a helpless offensive line that other RBs on the roster could not muster 3 yards per carry behind.
No matter how people cut it, LT was not "done" this year as many said he was. [/QUOTE]James, I'm not comparing LT to White in terms of talent or pedigree. LT is an all-time great. White obviously isn't. However, in terms of fantasy production the comparison remains apt. In 2008, White's primary value was a result of his touchdown production. In 2009, LT's primary value was a result of his touchdown production. In 2009, White's value evaporated because he didn't produce touchdowns. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen to LT in 2010.
If you had LT, the bottom line is he wasn't worth the price you paid for him. He was a Top 10 pick in all three of our national events this year based on ADP and he finished 18th in the NFFC among RBs in average points per game. So he clearly failed to provide the value his owners paid for him on Draft Day. The good news is that unlike guys like Forte and Barber he scored plenty of touchdowns so he was at least a viable starter during the season.
However, I'd have to question the sincerity of anyone who says they drafted or acquired LT in an auction league to be a "viable starter." He was drafted as a RB1 and failed badly to live up to that status. Given how his production has been in decline for three years running now, it's safe to assume it will decline further in 2010.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
He was this year's version of LenDale White.
The question I have is whether we'll see his production fall off the table next season the same way that White's did this season. The only differences being that White did not enter the season as one of the most prolific pass catching RB's in the history of the NFL, then suddenly not used in the passing game... He did not enter the season as the featured back on a top team playing in a weak division. White did not play behind a helpless offensive line that other RBs on the roster could not muster 3 yards per carry behind.
No matter how people cut it, LT was not "done" this year as many said he was. [/QUOTE]James, I'm not comparing LT to White in terms of talent or pedigree. LT is an all-time great. White obviously isn't. However, in terms of fantasy production the comparison remains apt. In 2008, White's primary value was a result of his touchdown production. In 2009, LT's primary value was a result of his touchdown production. In 2009, White's value evaporated because he didn't produce touchdowns. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen to LT in 2010.
If you had LT, the bottom line is he wasn't worth the price you paid for him. He was a Top 10 pick in all three of our national events this year based on ADP and he finished 18th in the NFFC among RBs in average points per game. So he clearly failed to provide the value his owners paid for him on Draft Day. The good news is that unlike guys like Forte and Barber he scored plenty of touchdowns so he was at least a viable starter during the season.
However, I'd have to question the sincerity of anyone who says they drafted or acquired LT in an auction league to be a "viable starter." He was drafted as a RB1 and failed badly to live up to that status. Given how his production has been in decline for three years running now, it's safe to assume it will decline further in 2010.
Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
L. Tomlinson debate
god loves you,
Why are you telling me in the first paragraph of your post that "LT is not the RB he used to be" when I have said the exact same thing in just about every single post involved with LT?
All I said is that he is not "DONE" for 2009 and would be a productive player for fantasy purposes.
That is all I said.
I was right.
For some unknown reason, (not saying you) as if LT had murdered a bus full of girlscouts, a small handful of posters came here ranting about how dead LT was (he clearly wasn't) and you might as well cut him (I feel bad for those who were dumb enough to do that), and how brilliant anyone was for avoiding him (this was in week 2 after his ankle sprain) which is what lower quality fantasy football clowns yap about...
Every single point I made about LT ended up being proven to be accurate.
The problem is when readers here INVENT POINTS I never made and start arguing against what was invented.
Why are you telling me in the first paragraph of your post that "LT is not the RB he used to be" when I have said the exact same thing in just about every single post involved with LT?
All I said is that he is not "DONE" for 2009 and would be a productive player for fantasy purposes.
That is all I said.
I was right.
For some unknown reason, (not saying you) as if LT had murdered a bus full of girlscouts, a small handful of posters came here ranting about how dead LT was (he clearly wasn't) and you might as well cut him (I feel bad for those who were dumb enough to do that), and how brilliant anyone was for avoiding him (this was in week 2 after his ankle sprain) which is what lower quality fantasy football clowns yap about...
Every single point I made about LT ended up being proven to be accurate.
The problem is when readers here INVENT POINTS I never made and start arguing against what was invented.
L. Tomlinson debate
Tom,
Of course LT's primary value was via TD's. Last I checked securing the RB who gets the TD's is an important part of fantasy football and if an RB has that job and can succeed in that job he clearly isn't DONE from a fantasy purpose.
You are right, LT wasn't worth the price people paid for him. The same can be said about a number of other players taken in the first 2 rounds. My point/opinion is that the talent drop off is not even close to the primary reason he wasn't worth his draft position.
I would order the reasons for his production drop off like this...
1-He got an injury in week 1 that 10 other younger RB's got.
2-His offensive line was crippled with injury. (No other RB on the roster was productive behind this line in any way)
3-The chargers suddenly decided to use LT in a very predictable way and never in the pass. No one predicted this.
4-He lost a step and maybe several.
I understand LT finished 18th in total RB points.
The discussions I was involved in took place AFTER his injury that resulted in 3 games of zero production. My viewpoints and contentions were all based on what he would do the second half of the season. I am no expert on filtering stats but I would be willing to bet that over the second half of the season LT was close to a top 10-12 RB for fantasy... Another way to say that is "not done."
Regarding your final point, I don't think anyone is arguing that the 30+ year old LT is on the downside of his career. Least of all me.
[ January 08, 2010, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]
Of course LT's primary value was via TD's. Last I checked securing the RB who gets the TD's is an important part of fantasy football and if an RB has that job and can succeed in that job he clearly isn't DONE from a fantasy purpose.
You are right, LT wasn't worth the price people paid for him. The same can be said about a number of other players taken in the first 2 rounds. My point/opinion is that the talent drop off is not even close to the primary reason he wasn't worth his draft position.
I would order the reasons for his production drop off like this...
1-He got an injury in week 1 that 10 other younger RB's got.
2-His offensive line was crippled with injury. (No other RB on the roster was productive behind this line in any way)
3-The chargers suddenly decided to use LT in a very predictable way and never in the pass. No one predicted this.
4-He lost a step and maybe several.
I understand LT finished 18th in total RB points.
The discussions I was involved in took place AFTER his injury that resulted in 3 games of zero production. My viewpoints and contentions were all based on what he would do the second half of the season. I am no expert on filtering stats but I would be willing to bet that over the second half of the season LT was close to a top 10-12 RB for fantasy... Another way to say that is "not done."
Regarding your final point, I don't think anyone is arguing that the 30+ year old LT is on the downside of his career. Least of all me.
[ January 08, 2010, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]