God Loves,
How are you any less of a "last word" person than me? If anything, you are showing significantly more passion and enthusiasm over this with your efforts to mock via pictures.
You can mock me as uninformed or a typical fan all you want. I will put my fantasy football (specifically high stakes) results up against most anyone. It is your OPINION that LT isn't a good NFL RB anymore. It is my OPINION that he still has enough left to be a productive viable player FOR FANTASY this year. I said the same thing in week 4 and was proven right.
If he had not scored as many TDs as he did and his "fantasy stats" were not as impressive I would have felt the same way. Why? Because the TYPICAL FAN blindly judges numbers. I saw a player who obviously has lost a couple steps (from being immortal and an all time great) and was used horribly. He played behind a crippled line, and got hurt in week 2. You asked why I repeatedly bring those (100% accurate) points up... well this is why, because some people BLINDLY JUDGE ON STATS and force me to paint the bigger picture. They watch LT not have the exact same burst, or lose balance, or whatever, and make the dramatic jump from him being an all time great, to being borderline crippled with no gray area in between.
I believe there is a gray area.
I made a very fair point about L Johnson that you conveniently ignored. His YPC "stats" with the Chiefs were horrible... his YPC "stats" with the Bengals were pretty solid. Same Larry Johnson. Apparently stats can lie. Apparently a playing circumstance change can make a difference.
You are a FRUSTRATED fan who was spoiled by him in the past and can't see that 75% of LT is still a viable option in this league.
King of queens,
I don't think LT has much left myself either going forward. If he plays I would expect more than what you just outlined from S. Alexander, but there is no question the end is VERY near.
L. Tomlinson debate
L. Tomlinson debate
The only gray area that matters is that between one's ears. Most here are using that, while a certain someone is not.
I'd spell gray D O N E.
Full disclosure - I'm making this post on the off-chance that Ren will state for the 569th time all of his reasons tht LT is not done. Just in case somebody missed it.
I'd spell gray D O N E.
Full disclosure - I'm making this post on the off-chance that Ren will state for the 569th time all of his reasons tht LT is not done. Just in case somebody missed it.
You'll be fine long as your pretty face holds out, then it's gonna get pretty cold out...
L. Tomlinson debate
4D,
Ah, more clever mocking and name calling. I guess when you lose the actual debate (not the debate you are making up and having with an imaginary person) one has to resort to name calling and mocking.
[ January 12, 2010, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]
Ah, more clever mocking and name calling. I guess when you lose the actual debate (not the debate you are making up and having with an imaginary person) one has to resort to name calling and mocking.
[ January 12, 2010, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]
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sportsbettingman
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:00 pm
L. Tomlinson debate
I think LT scores 3-4 TD in the playoffs if SD gets 2-3 games.
Combine that with his regular season TD total...and barring SD signing a major stud rookie or free agent...LT won't make it into the 6th or 7th round. (my guess)
If he stinks it up in the playoffs, or they sign a major RB (very likely)...then he's officially done. Sproles is not his replacement, in spite of his 3 or so good games this year.
Combine that with his regular season TD total...and barring SD signing a major stud rookie or free agent...LT won't make it into the 6th or 7th round. (my guess)
If he stinks it up in the playoffs, or they sign a major RB (very likely)...then he's officially done. Sproles is not his replacement, in spite of his 3 or so good games this year.
"The first man what makes a move can count amongst 'is treasure a ball from this pistol."
~Long John Silver
~Long John Silver
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sportsbettingman
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:00 pm
L. Tomlinson debate
It may prove to be the WRONG move to select LT in the first 6 rounds...but folks will look at his TD's and salivate if he still has the number one roll and the goaline roll in 2010.
8 of his 12 (16 weeks) games he had a TD, and the critical week 12 with 2 TD will not be forgotten in his 2009 owners minds. FOUR 2 TD games.
Sure...he's no longer a 1-3 rounders...but when the picking gets slim in the late 4th, 5th and 6th...you'll hear his name called out. (barring the above)
[ January 12, 2010, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
8 of his 12 (16 weeks) games he had a TD, and the critical week 12 with 2 TD will not be forgotten in his 2009 owners minds. FOUR 2 TD games.
Sure...he's no longer a 1-3 rounders...but when the picking gets slim in the late 4th, 5th and 6th...you'll hear his name called out. (barring the above)
[ January 12, 2010, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
"The first man what makes a move can count amongst 'is treasure a ball from this pistol."
~Long John Silver
~Long John Silver
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GOD Loves You
- Posts: 2260
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:00 pm
L. Tomlinson debate
James, have you ever listened to John Hansen, The Fantasy Guru's matchup podcast?
Greg Cossell joins him each week to give his thoughts and analysis from watching the COACHES tape. He echoed what most of us have said about LT........LAST SEASON.....and reiterated throughout this season as well.
This is the same Cossell that's worked for NFL Films for a few decades.....NFL Films, the people who document the history of the league. He helped create the "Matchup" show seen each week on ESPN.
Now I am curious, would Mr. Cossell be a
typical/casual/beer drinking fan in your eyes?? If so, then nevermind what I'm about to say, but if he does qualify as more than the typical fan, which he does, why in the world would he be saying basically the exact same thing many of us have said regarding LT? He simply offers his thoughts based on his observations of the game film.
Are we really that blind? Or do you still insist we are all looking blindly at stats, even though a few of us have stated our sight is what is driving our analysis. Your sight doesn't seem to jive with, well, the majority of folks who watch the game.
Here's something from Mr. Cossell, again he simply watches the coaches tape and gives his opinion, like many of us watch the games and do the same.
"Tomlinson just does not have the lateral agility and explosiveness that he once had, No longer has the same balance and body control that consistently made the unblocked defender miss. He can’t create space for himself out of confined areas anymore"
I'm pretty sure all of these are qualities of a good NFL RB. That's why Darren McFadden isn't a good NFL RB, he doesn't possess these qualites.....the good ones do, the mediocre to poor ones do not.
BTW, your LJ analogy doesn't hold much water. You might want to look more deeply at his stats. He played against some really good run defenses while he was with the Chiefs, with the Bengals, he played against a few of the worst. Plus, 46 carries is an extremely small sample size, especially when you consider 22 of those attempts were against the Browns, the one game that comprised most of his Bengal production.
Ok, I'm officially done. I'm far from being a frustrated fan. Ultimately, I really could care less what happens in the league. I watch the game because I grew up around it, played it, coached it and am in love with it.
I am curious though and it doesn't matter, just curious.....James, have you ever taken a snap from center or taken on a pulling guard or anything remotely close to playing the game? And breaking down game film for a TV station doesn't compare to breaking it down to game plan for a team.
Greg Cossell joins him each week to give his thoughts and analysis from watching the COACHES tape. He echoed what most of us have said about LT........LAST SEASON.....and reiterated throughout this season as well.
This is the same Cossell that's worked for NFL Films for a few decades.....NFL Films, the people who document the history of the league. He helped create the "Matchup" show seen each week on ESPN.
Now I am curious, would Mr. Cossell be a
typical/casual/beer drinking fan in your eyes?? If so, then nevermind what I'm about to say, but if he does qualify as more than the typical fan, which he does, why in the world would he be saying basically the exact same thing many of us have said regarding LT? He simply offers his thoughts based on his observations of the game film.
Are we really that blind? Or do you still insist we are all looking blindly at stats, even though a few of us have stated our sight is what is driving our analysis. Your sight doesn't seem to jive with, well, the majority of folks who watch the game.
Here's something from Mr. Cossell, again he simply watches the coaches tape and gives his opinion, like many of us watch the games and do the same.
"Tomlinson just does not have the lateral agility and explosiveness that he once had, No longer has the same balance and body control that consistently made the unblocked defender miss. He can’t create space for himself out of confined areas anymore"
I'm pretty sure all of these are qualities of a good NFL RB. That's why Darren McFadden isn't a good NFL RB, he doesn't possess these qualites.....the good ones do, the mediocre to poor ones do not.
BTW, your LJ analogy doesn't hold much water. You might want to look more deeply at his stats. He played against some really good run defenses while he was with the Chiefs, with the Bengals, he played against a few of the worst. Plus, 46 carries is an extremely small sample size, especially when you consider 22 of those attempts were against the Browns, the one game that comprised most of his Bengal production.
Ok, I'm officially done. I'm far from being a frustrated fan. Ultimately, I really could care less what happens in the league. I watch the game because I grew up around it, played it, coached it and am in love with it.
I am curious though and it doesn't matter, just curious.....James, have you ever taken a snap from center or taken on a pulling guard or anything remotely close to playing the game? And breaking down game film for a TV station doesn't compare to breaking it down to game plan for a team.
FAITH IS NOT BELIEVING THAT GOD CAN....
IT IS KNOWING THAT HE WILL
IT IS KNOWING THAT HE WILL
L. Tomlinson debate
Yes, I know how the mainstream sports media guys have to take an aggressive position on players. It isn't very compelling to say "hey, Brett Favre is still a servicable QB...but isn't the same as his MVP years" Or "LT can still be a productive useful NFL RB but has definately lost some burst".. That does not make for compelling talk radio or podcasts. These guys have to put themselves out on a limb and make definative judgements. I know all about it.
I got a kick out of watching Hanson and Cosell knock LT early in the season and than have to back off that as the year went on and say "hmmmm, well.. LT has been showing more burst and balance of late...but he still isn't this or that like..." when he was making something out of nothing on plays that were as poorly blocked as any RB saw in the league.
I can pull many pieces from Mr. Cosell and his coaches tape segments from that website where he said a particular player was dead, had nothing left, had no explosiveness, etc... and then 2 weeks later was playing great and suddenly had explosiveness. I read those reports too.
Having said that, I appreciate you giving the quote that pretty much says "LT isn't what he used to be..." Which is what I said in just about every post on this topic.
Do we need to have me repeat again what my point was in the original LT debate? You guys complain when I repeat myself and then require me repeat myself.
So you say "stats don't lie" but with LJ we need to "look deeper and look past the stats..." Interesting analysis.
I love pro football too. But I tire of people on this message board jumping down the throat of someone who dares to have an OPINION that falls outside of the herd who follows what some supposed experts said on a website.
I (read this carefully) simply said (in week 4 of the NFL season) that LT would be a productive fantasy RB during the second half of the year (and was right.. remember, stats don't lie). I said this in defense of a small handful of clowns who were pounding their chests (in week 2 after his ankle injury) about how right they were to avoid LT on draft day. which is akin to me saying last year that I was right to avoid Tom Brady in round 1 after he blew out his knee.
I end up being right.. but unfortunately some people read what I said, and then INVENTED that I am saying LT is still a stud, just as good as he always was, or whatever else. I clearly said he had lost a step, if not multiple steps... I just believe that he still had solid value as a fantasy RB for the remainder of the season and much of his drop off in production was due to things outside of his control.
I believe I was right.
[ January 12, 2010, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]
I got a kick out of watching Hanson and Cosell knock LT early in the season and than have to back off that as the year went on and say "hmmmm, well.. LT has been showing more burst and balance of late...but he still isn't this or that like..." when he was making something out of nothing on plays that were as poorly blocked as any RB saw in the league.
I can pull many pieces from Mr. Cosell and his coaches tape segments from that website where he said a particular player was dead, had nothing left, had no explosiveness, etc... and then 2 weeks later was playing great and suddenly had explosiveness. I read those reports too.
Having said that, I appreciate you giving the quote that pretty much says "LT isn't what he used to be..." Which is what I said in just about every post on this topic.
Do we need to have me repeat again what my point was in the original LT debate? You guys complain when I repeat myself and then require me repeat myself.
So you say "stats don't lie" but with LJ we need to "look deeper and look past the stats..." Interesting analysis.
I love pro football too. But I tire of people on this message board jumping down the throat of someone who dares to have an OPINION that falls outside of the herd who follows what some supposed experts said on a website.
I (read this carefully) simply said (in week 4 of the NFL season) that LT would be a productive fantasy RB during the second half of the year (and was right.. remember, stats don't lie). I said this in defense of a small handful of clowns who were pounding their chests (in week 2 after his ankle injury) about how right they were to avoid LT on draft day. which is akin to me saying last year that I was right to avoid Tom Brady in round 1 after he blew out his knee.
I end up being right.. but unfortunately some people read what I said, and then INVENTED that I am saying LT is still a stud, just as good as he always was, or whatever else. I clearly said he had lost a step, if not multiple steps... I just believe that he still had solid value as a fantasy RB for the remainder of the season and much of his drop off in production was due to things outside of his control.
I believe I was right.
[ January 12, 2010, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Renman ]
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by Renman:
Rkulaski,
The TYPICAL fan has to make dramatic colorful assessments of NFL players, especially the great ones. They MUST be categorized and labeled. TONS of people (including on this forum) said Favre was DONE as an NFL QB and it had nothing to do with him retiring. His on the field skills were regularly judged by people.
Cedrick Benson was deemed a "BUST" a bum, no burst, no vision, no quickness, no balance... Now suddenly he has all of those things. I guess he learned and knew this in college, forgot it somehow for several years while in the NFL and than magically remembered all of those things over the last 2 years.
Stats LIE all the time in the NFL. A players situation and circumstance HUGELY impact his statistical production. I believe LT still has enough juice NOW to be a productive NFL RB NOW. That does not mean he is LT circa 2004. That means he isn't "done" yet in my opinion.
What I am more baffled by is how hostile some get at the notion that I dare have the opinion that LT is still a decent NFL RB. This ongoing debate is perpetuated others as much as by me. People could have read my opinion, disagreed respectfully.. and we agree to disagree. Instead I was knocked for daring to have this opinion and constantly questioned, which resulted in my responding with viewpoints and logic from my perspective. Isn't that what makes sports debates interesting? I am not the one coming up with clip art to mock the person I am having a friendly sports debate with.
For some unknown reason people get pissy about things like this and I never understand why. I actually think it's been a blast to talk about LT this year. Always harder to debate/discuss issues on messageboards as things can be taken out of context...etc etc.
Rkulaski,
The TYPICAL fan has to make dramatic colorful assessments of NFL players, especially the great ones. They MUST be categorized and labeled. TONS of people (including on this forum) said Favre was DONE as an NFL QB and it had nothing to do with him retiring. His on the field skills were regularly judged by people.
Cedrick Benson was deemed a "BUST" a bum, no burst, no vision, no quickness, no balance... Now suddenly he has all of those things. I guess he learned and knew this in college, forgot it somehow for several years while in the NFL and than magically remembered all of those things over the last 2 years.
Stats LIE all the time in the NFL. A players situation and circumstance HUGELY impact his statistical production. I believe LT still has enough juice NOW to be a productive NFL RB NOW. That does not mean he is LT circa 2004. That means he isn't "done" yet in my opinion.
What I am more baffled by is how hostile some get at the notion that I dare have the opinion that LT is still a decent NFL RB. This ongoing debate is perpetuated others as much as by me. People could have read my opinion, disagreed respectfully.. and we agree to disagree. Instead I was knocked for daring to have this opinion and constantly questioned, which resulted in my responding with viewpoints and logic from my perspective. Isn't that what makes sports debates interesting? I am not the one coming up with clip art to mock the person I am having a friendly sports debate with.
For some unknown reason people get pissy about things like this and I never understand why. I actually think it's been a blast to talk about LT this year. Always harder to debate/discuss issues on messageboards as things can be taken out of context...etc etc.
L. Tomlinson debate
Originally posted by King of Queens:
Remember when Shaun Alexander came back and played for the Redskins in 2008?
4 games
11 attempts
24 yards
1 reception
9 yards
0 TDs
That's LaDainian Tomlinson in 2010. Ouch! Could happen. LT started to be past his prime during M Turner's last yr in SD. Turner actually looked better than LT that yr. I only saw pieces of Chargers' games that yr but that's how I remember it.
Remember when Shaun Alexander came back and played for the Redskins in 2008?
4 games
11 attempts
24 yards
1 reception
9 yards
0 TDs
That's LaDainian Tomlinson in 2010. Ouch! Could happen. LT started to be past his prime during M Turner's last yr in SD. Turner actually looked better than LT that yr. I only saw pieces of Chargers' games that yr but that's how I remember it.
L. Tomlinson debate
Rkulaski,
I agree with you. I ENJOY debate about football here. Since year one of the NFFC I have tried to fuel it. I enjoy it when it is spirited. I have no problem with differing opinions and enjoy outlining how mine differ from someone else's. But for some reason on this message board people at times get hostile... frustrated.. and then have to revert to mocking. I am all about things that are funny and having a laugh, but at times here (though not nearly as bad as it used to be) it can get unfriendly. I actually stopped posting for a season and a half because of it. Truth be told, this place has been hugely cleaned up. The culture is much better now (which is why I returned).
As for LT, he is obviously on the downside. It will be interesting to see what his role is next year. I havn't seen any sign he intends to retire so who knows what his situation will be.
I agree with you. I ENJOY debate about football here. Since year one of the NFFC I have tried to fuel it. I enjoy it when it is spirited. I have no problem with differing opinions and enjoy outlining how mine differ from someone else's. But for some reason on this message board people at times get hostile... frustrated.. and then have to revert to mocking. I am all about things that are funny and having a laugh, but at times here (though not nearly as bad as it used to be) it can get unfriendly. I actually stopped posting for a season and a half because of it. Truth be told, this place has been hugely cleaned up. The culture is much better now (which is why I returned).
As for LT, he is obviously on the downside. It will be interesting to see what his role is next year. I havn't seen any sign he intends to retire so who knows what his situation will be.