Suggestion for next year...

Route Collectors
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:00 pm

Suggestion for next year...

Post by Route Collectors » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:58 am

Mind if I throw out a quick thought on the value of H2H?

I've had a rough year (no doubt about it) but I've never had a year like this one when it comes to the randomness of points scored against.

My NFFC main..auction and local league teams ALL had the honor of having the most points scored against.

Think it doesn't matter....take a quick peek at my auction league where I barely squeaked into the playoffs


Route C - y (4) 4-9-0 .308 L 1 1619.6 1654.6
Coltsfan - y (5) 9-4-0 .692 W 5 1616.6 1419.25

How crazy is that...I scored 3 more points than Wayne and was 5 games behind him in H2H.

I think it's worth mentioning when you have 235 more points scored against you. :eek:

This is an EXACT example of why I don't support more than the leagues best H2H record getting in the big dance.

You can say that points can be skewed by a team having a couple of big weeks....I say that's bull when compared to the randomness of H2H.

I think this is a good thread and hopefully we'll continue on without trying to figure out someones tone or calling someone the points police or whatever else is irrelevant to the discussion.

Thanks for your time..I hope I added something.





[ December 04, 2008, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Route C ]

Captain Hook
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:00 pm

Suggestion for next year...

Post by Captain Hook » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:11 am

Some very good points Jeff...........BUT let me reiterate one of my concerns.

We DO play H2H as part of this contest
(there are alternative forms that do not...and not sure that Greg would want to have the second contest do it, but...Leagues play 14 weeks to get top four teams to go to playoffs in Weeks 15 & 16; Top seed chooses Week 15 opponent. Pay top three in each league and top teams in contest based soley on Points)

Right now a team could go 11-2 in a contest that HAS H2H games and win Zilch.....sorry that is just not acceptable......and now a team could go 12-1, 11-2, or 10-3 and TIE for best record and get more Zilch....just shouldn't be that way (at a minimum they should split the $ for best record - they DID tie for it!)

mikeybok
Posts: 2418
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:00 pm

Suggestion for next year...

Post by mikeybok » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:12 am

Originally posted by Route C:
Mind if I throw out a quick thought on the value of H2H?

I've had a rough year (no doubt about it) but I've never had a year like this one when it comes to the randomness of points scored against.

My NFFC main..auction and local league teams ALL had the honor of having the most points scored against.

Think it doesn't matter....take a quick peek at my auction league where I barely squeaked into the playoffs


Route C - y (4) 4-9-0 .308 L 1 1619.6 1654.6
Coltsfan - y (5) 9-4-0 .692 W 5 1616.6 1419.25

How crazy is that...I scored 3 more points than Wayne and was 5 games behind him in H2H.

I think it's worth mentioning when you have 235 more points scored against you. :eek:

This is an EXACT example of why I don't support more than the leagues best H2H record getting in the big dance.

You can say that points can be skewed by a team having a couple of big weeks....I say that's bull when compared to the randomness of H2H.

I think this is a good thread and hopefully we'll continue on without trying to figure out someones tone or calling someone the points police or whatever else is irrelevant to the discussion.

Thanks for your time..I hope I added something.
Interesting post and I agree ... but I'm not sure I like your tone Jeff!

Hakuna Matata!

Eddiejag
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Suggestion for next year...

Post by Eddiejag » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:19 am

John and Captain im with you , i think it's time to get the 3rd team in the big dance .I also agree with Capt that if you tie in win's , split the money.
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ultimatefs
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Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:00 pm

Suggestion for next year...

Post by ultimatefs » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:34 pm

Originally posted by Captain Hook:
Some very good points Jeff...........BUT let me reiterate one of my concerns.

We DO play H2H as part of this contest
(there are alternative forms that do not...and not sure that Greg would want to have the second contest do it, but...Leagues play 14 weeks to get top four teams to go to playoffs in Weeks 15 & 16; Top seed chooses Week 15 opponent. Pay top three in each league and top teams in contest based soley on Points)

Right now a team could go 11-2 in a contest that HAS H2H games and win Zilch.....sorry that is just not acceptable......and now a team could go 12-1, 11-2, or 10-3 and TIE for best record and get more Zilch....just shouldn't be that way (at a minimum they should split the $ for best record - they DID tie for it!) Sorry Capt... I can see giving 10-3+ teams a shot at the dance, but I don't want to see the League changing anything from Greg's post.

Jeff has a nice post there. This issue IS driving people out of the contest.

If they are tied, there needs to be a tie-breaker.

You need to go behind the numbers and not just the record itself.

In LV1, Mark went 11-2(2nd) and wound up 5th in pts.

he finished 122 pts behind Renfro, the 3rd place team.

125-130 pts is the benchmark IMO on the low end of a decent week. Let's use 125 pts.

#3 FFWingman 7-2 when scoring 125+
8-5(1724) 1-3 when scoring 125-

#4 Follow Me 6-0 when scoring 125+
11-2(1602) 5-2 when scoring 125-

3 more 125+ games, and two more losses. No skill involved. Just good luck for some, bad for others.

This is WHY pts is used as the tie-breaker and why it needs to remain there.
For S&giggles, I'll add..

#1 RapTors 7-1 when scoring 125+
12-1(1628) 5-0 when scoring 125-

#2 69THPlace 6-3 when scoring 125+
8-5 (1781) 2-2 when scoring 125-

Raptors and Follow Me had 1415/1432 PA
69th and FFWingman had 1651/1521 PA

Mark had a solid team and is a much feared opponent, but he's only 11-2 via the schedule. He had little to do with it.

Four wins scoring 95-116. I had one score under 115 the entire year. (of course, against Mark LOL)

He went 11-2, let him in the big dance by being 10-3+, but IMO, he doesn't deserve any league money.

You will find similar results in every league where you do the 125+/- test in these situations. I could have really made this look a lot worse using 130+/-...

This 11-2 team is clearly the 4th best team in this league at best.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.

Team Canada
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:00 pm

Suggestion for next year...

Post by Team Canada » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:55 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I will state that I too have been concerned about teams that finish second in total points being left out of the Championship Round because a h2h record lower than second beat that team out. It's happened before and I knew it happened in a handful of times this year, too. As John points out, three teams probably have a legitimate reason why they should be in the Championship Round this year.

I've given this a lot of thought in the last month and I'm seriously considering expanding the Championship Round to include three teams from each league, especially in the NFFC Classic. This year that would have allowed 66 teams in the Championship Round -- only 18 more than we have now and only 15 more than what John is proposing here. To me, it would add more value and it would keep more teams fighting to the bitter end with the hope of not only getting their money back for third place but also having a shot at the $100,000 grand prize.

This would basically eliminate the need for the wild card that we have (although we can keep it in place) and give more reward to the example John noted. I feel we already have a complicated enough league playoff system and I am not in favor of changing that to add a third team. H2H and total points champions would still each receive $2,500 with the chance to win another $2,500. The third place team in this example has the chance to earn an additional $100,000 and was already beaten out by the total points champ and h2h champ. You're punishing the total points champ by throwing him into a three-way league playoff setup for the remaining $2,500. With three teams getting in from each league, that's still only 21.4% compared to 15.6% now.

Adding a third league playoff team in the NFFC Primetime also adds value in that contest because now instead of just winning $700 you also have a shot at the $100,000 grand prize. I'm still looking for feedback on that one, however.

So that's what I'm thinking about for 2009 and I'll start a separate thread and rules changes ideas soon. Adding language to address a canceled game and the FAAB deadline will also be in that thread. Hope this helps clarify my position. Greg I believe adding that many would get more and more discouraging.
People want to believe they have a chance at winning once there in and 1 in 44 or 46 sounds way better then 1 in 66.

The only way you are truly getting hosed is if there is 44 teams in the playoffs and your not in while you finished in the top 44 :mad:
So just expand the wild card to the number of projected playoff teams :D

If h2h has to stay the last 2 weeks in the NBC turned out way more exciting and would be great all year. It's so perfect the best teams each week win the worse lose perfectly fair exciting and showing consistency...
2008 double playoffs!!

Captain Hook
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Suggestion for next year...

Post by Captain Hook » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:16 pm

John get off your high points horse.
If we HAVE H2H then those that achieve should get paid. If two teams tie for 1st - they split that part of the prize. (yes your total points team will still earn more money in the league AND get a ticket to the Championship bracket)

King of Queens
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Suggestion for next year...

Post by King of Queens » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:01 pm

If two teams tie for best H2H, tie breaker should go to the team that won their matchup

Dabigu
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Suggestion for next year...

Post by Dabigu » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:22 pm

KOQ - I have always been in favor of that as a tiebreaker, the true H2H champion in our format should be the one that won the H2H matchup, if 2 teams are tied. What happens if 3 teams are tied and they all finished 1-1 against common opponents. You would then need a list of tiebreakers. I think you need to leave total points against tied opponents as the last tiebreaker, as H2H should be just that, not the one with most points. We already reward the team with the most points in the league.
Some Assembly Required

ultimatefs
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Suggestion for next year...

Post by ultimatefs » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:39 pm

Originally posted by Captain Hook:
John get off your high points horse.
If we HAVE H2H then those that achieve should get paid. If two teams tie for 1st - they split that part of the prize. (yes your total points team will still earn more money in the league AND get a ticket to the Championship bracket) High horse? you're the only one that rode in here on one.

Start your own thread on this if you feel it's that important. Don't hijack my thread unless you can post facts to back up your argument. You have yet to post ANY facts.

The "h2H" police are the only people ripping on people in this thread. Enuf said.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.

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