What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I hate to admit this, but the FSTA has not been actively letting consumers know about the WCOFF situation or the Rapid Draft situation or the SportsBuff situation. with so many "situations" out there and in the past, maybe it's time for some regulation. innocent customers keep getting screwed. [/QUOTE]I think the FSTA and its leaders need to understand that either we police ourselves in this industry or the only other alternative is government intervention. I don't think we need government intervention to run legal fantasy games, but obviously the current situation isn't working. Nobody is policing the game operators when we have a Trade Assocation that can help consumers with that. There's no Trade Association for consumers to turn to right now for help, even though AFFL.com and SportsBuff and Rapid Draft and WCOFF were all FSTA members.
This is a very serious time for our young industry and next week is very important for the FSTA. I sure hope this becomes a big part of the discussion there. I asked if the WCOFF situation could become part of the Prizes Panel discussion on Tuesday and I was just told that it definitely will be. So that's a good start. I'll let you know if anything comes out of that meeting. Follow me on Twitter!!
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I hate to admit this, but the FSTA has not been actively letting consumers know about the WCOFF situation or the Rapid Draft situation or the SportsBuff situation. with so many "situations" out there and in the past, maybe it's time for some regulation. innocent customers keep getting screwed. [/QUOTE]I think the FSTA and its leaders need to understand that either we police ourselves in this industry or the only other alternative is government intervention. I don't think we need government intervention to run legal fantasy games, but obviously the current situation isn't working. Nobody is policing the game operators when we have a Trade Assocation that can help consumers with that. There's no Trade Association for consumers to turn to right now for help, even though AFFL.com and SportsBuff and Rapid Draft and WCOFF were all FSTA members.
This is a very serious time for our young industry and next week is very important for the FSTA. I sure hope this becomes a big part of the discussion there. I asked if the WCOFF situation could become part of the Prizes Panel discussion on Tuesday and I was just told that it definitely will be. So that's a good start. I'll let you know if anything comes out of that meeting. Follow me on Twitter!!
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that.
Twitter: @ScottFantasy
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott - One of the things I wanted to talk with you about was the FPA and their interaction with the various football contests. I should be in contact in the next 3-4 days.
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott - One of the things I wanted to talk with you about was the FPA and their interaction with the various football contests. I should be in contact in the next 3-4 days.
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott - One of the things I wanted to talk with you about was the FPA and their interaction with the various football contests. I should be in contact in the next 3-4 days. [/QUOTE]Sure, no problem!
quote:Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott - One of the things I wanted to talk with you about was the FPA and their interaction with the various football contests. I should be in contact in the next 3-4 days. [/QUOTE]Sure, no problem!
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott, the FSTA definitely has the best chance to make a positive impact for consumers because more than 100 companies are part of that association. If the FSTA can somehow set guidelines that all pay-to-play game operators have to follow then maybe we won't have these discussions again. The rollover prize payout should be included in those guidelines and discussions, too. I don't think the FSTA can mandate anything or even police this space, but it's definitely time that all of the major companies in the FSTA address this serious problem and find a solution. I've been asked to put some guidelines together for the FSTA and honestly I'm not sure there's anything a trade association can do to make this completely right. But I will start with some guidelines and go from there.
Again, all of the major fantasy companies are part of this association. It has to start with the business leaders and having them change the current environment. It's time for all game operators to get on the same page with securing prize money, paying out winners and regulating themselves. We don't want government intervention if we can solve this ourselves.
Do they get a pass right now? No. Again, we started as the Fantasy Sports Players Association and I agreed that we needed to change to the Fantasy Sports Trade Association in 2003 because we had advanced beyond just protecting the players. We were definitely an industry trade association at that time, working with and against the leagues and players associations on action items like licensing and lobbying. We felt we had solved many of the players' issues.
Now we're back to Square One and I think the FSTA at the very least needs to add a consumers' committee to constantly address these issues and release news items about payment issues. It has to become an advocacy group for the players. The FPA can be that too, but to be taken very seriously it needs the power to make companies change how they run their businesses. And I'm not sure how that's done by just the players.
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott, the FSTA definitely has the best chance to make a positive impact for consumers because more than 100 companies are part of that association. If the FSTA can somehow set guidelines that all pay-to-play game operators have to follow then maybe we won't have these discussions again. The rollover prize payout should be included in those guidelines and discussions, too. I don't think the FSTA can mandate anything or even police this space, but it's definitely time that all of the major companies in the FSTA address this serious problem and find a solution. I've been asked to put some guidelines together for the FSTA and honestly I'm not sure there's anything a trade association can do to make this completely right. But I will start with some guidelines and go from there.
Again, all of the major fantasy companies are part of this association. It has to start with the business leaders and having them change the current environment. It's time for all game operators to get on the same page with securing prize money, paying out winners and regulating themselves. We don't want government intervention if we can solve this ourselves.
Do they get a pass right now? No. Again, we started as the Fantasy Sports Players Association and I agreed that we needed to change to the Fantasy Sports Trade Association in 2003 because we had advanced beyond just protecting the players. We were definitely an industry trade association at that time, working with and against the leagues and players associations on action items like licensing and lobbying. We felt we had solved many of the players' issues.
Now we're back to Square One and I think the FSTA at the very least needs to add a consumers' committee to constantly address these issues and release news items about payment issues. It has to become an advocacy group for the players. The FPA can be that too, but to be taken very seriously it needs the power to make companies change how they run their businesses. And I'm not sure how that's done by just the players.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott, the FSTA definitely has the best chance to make a positive impact for consumers because more than 100 companies are part of that association. If the FSTA can somehow set guidelines that all pay-to-play game operators have to follow then maybe we won't have these discussions again. The rollover prize payout should be included in those guidelines and discussions, too. I don't think the FSTA can mandate anything or even police this space, but it's definitely time that all of the major companies in the FSTA address this serious problem and find a solution. I've been asked to put some guidelines together for the FSTA and honestly I'm not sure there's anything a trade association can do to make this completely right. But I will start with some guidelines and go from there.
Again, all of the major fantasy companies are part of this association. It has to start with the business leaders and having them change the current environment. It's time for all game operators to get on the same page with securing prize money, paying out winners and regulating themselves. We don't want government intervention if we can solve this ourselves.
Do they get a pass right now? No. Again, we started as the Fantasy Sports Players Association and I agreed that we needed to change to the Fantasy Sports Trade Association in 2003 because we had advanced beyond just protecting the players. We were definitely an industry trade association at that time, working with and against the leagues and players associations on action items like licensing and lobbying. We felt we had solved many of the players' issues.
Now we're back to Square One and I think the FSTA at the very least needs to add a consumers' committee to constantly address these issues and release news items about payment issues. It has to become an advocacy group for the players. The FPA can be that too, but to be taken very seriously it needs the power to make companies change how they run their businesses. And I'm not sure how that's done by just the players. [/QUOTE]The theme of the FPA is Power to the Players and I believe it to my very core that it is the only solution to the problems at hand. The FPA or FSTA is powerless to hold contests accountable, however the customers are not.
The players are the solution.
At the FPA, the players will give all veteran and new players coming in (most important) transparency in a fun, (non boring , trade association) kind of way. I guess we'll just have to disagree on the FSTA for several reasons ever doing this, as I've been to the FSTA website and no new player jumping into satellite leagues at $50 and $60 levels from their local hometown leagues are going to find anything remotely interesting about the FSTA or want to go there to decide where to spend their fantasy dollars. Now, to defend the FPA for a moment, if they had a home where they learned from veteran players, had a trusted board of directors made up of entirely non industry fantasy players and could read player and site reviews about said contests, could build their player profile, and vent or complain when needed, that is the forum they need. The power lies ONLY in the players, they are the consumers.
The FSTA has their own special interest, and that's in the $600 per year or whatever fee they charge to join. The FPA will never take an industry dollar for membership, unless that $ is to give the players an opportunity to review their offering.
Check out our new site design on our facebook page and tell me what you think. Pay no attention to the ugly mug in the center.
https://www.facebook.com/FantasyPA
[ June 10, 2011, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: FPA - Scott Atkins ]
quote:Originally posted by FPA - Scott Atkins:
I'm not giving the FSTA a pass on anything. They've kept quiet for way too long on all previous issues to be a respected source for the players. They're industry driven plain and simple and no new panel will ever change that. Scott, the FSTA definitely has the best chance to make a positive impact for consumers because more than 100 companies are part of that association. If the FSTA can somehow set guidelines that all pay-to-play game operators have to follow then maybe we won't have these discussions again. The rollover prize payout should be included in those guidelines and discussions, too. I don't think the FSTA can mandate anything or even police this space, but it's definitely time that all of the major companies in the FSTA address this serious problem and find a solution. I've been asked to put some guidelines together for the FSTA and honestly I'm not sure there's anything a trade association can do to make this completely right. But I will start with some guidelines and go from there.
Again, all of the major fantasy companies are part of this association. It has to start with the business leaders and having them change the current environment. It's time for all game operators to get on the same page with securing prize money, paying out winners and regulating themselves. We don't want government intervention if we can solve this ourselves.
Do they get a pass right now? No. Again, we started as the Fantasy Sports Players Association and I agreed that we needed to change to the Fantasy Sports Trade Association in 2003 because we had advanced beyond just protecting the players. We were definitely an industry trade association at that time, working with and against the leagues and players associations on action items like licensing and lobbying. We felt we had solved many of the players' issues.
Now we're back to Square One and I think the FSTA at the very least needs to add a consumers' committee to constantly address these issues and release news items about payment issues. It has to become an advocacy group for the players. The FPA can be that too, but to be taken very seriously it needs the power to make companies change how they run their businesses. And I'm not sure how that's done by just the players. [/QUOTE]The theme of the FPA is Power to the Players and I believe it to my very core that it is the only solution to the problems at hand. The FPA or FSTA is powerless to hold contests accountable, however the customers are not.
The players are the solution.
At the FPA, the players will give all veteran and new players coming in (most important) transparency in a fun, (non boring , trade association) kind of way. I guess we'll just have to disagree on the FSTA for several reasons ever doing this, as I've been to the FSTA website and no new player jumping into satellite leagues at $50 and $60 levels from their local hometown leagues are going to find anything remotely interesting about the FSTA or want to go there to decide where to spend their fantasy dollars. Now, to defend the FPA for a moment, if they had a home where they learned from veteran players, had a trusted board of directors made up of entirely non industry fantasy players and could read player and site reviews about said contests, could build their player profile, and vent or complain when needed, that is the forum they need. The power lies ONLY in the players, they are the consumers.
The FSTA has their own special interest, and that's in the $600 per year or whatever fee they charge to join. The FPA will never take an industry dollar for membership, unless that $ is to give the players an opportunity to review their offering.
Check out our new site design on our facebook page and tell me what you think. Pay no attention to the ugly mug in the center.
https://www.facebook.com/FantasyPA
[ June 10, 2011, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: FPA - Scott Atkins ]
Twitter: @ScottFantasy
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Look at ol' me, tweeting from San Francisco!!!! While you're there, be sure to check out the Blue Oyster Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJMerul33E
Look at ol' me, tweeting from San Francisco!!!! While you're there, be sure to check out the Blue Oyster Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJMerul33E
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by RC Techies:
Let's review the possible scenario's:
1. The money is there but can't be released for payment to the winners because of a shareholder's concerns or an accounting problem. Both are highly unlikely. In my opinion, the least likely of all possibilities.
2. The Wcoff is trying to reorganize and bring in investors to continue in business. This is a very likely scenario but I can't believe any investors are stupid enough to put money into a company that probably has substantial losses.
3. The Wcoff is trying to delay long enough for the NFL to settle the labor dispute, at which time it is counting on getting enough signups to cover past winners. In this case, we will continue to see delay's from the Wcoff until the labor dispute settles. Then we will see an announcement that they will shortly began sending out more checks.
4. The Wcoff sales its assets to another company for a small fee. All assets are transferred to the new company including the Wcoff name and the Wcoff website. The new company advertises itself out as the new Wcoff and begins to accept applications for the 2011 season. It may or may not offer some credit to the past winners that are owed by the old company. Those winners owe by the old company are simply out of luck. The new company continues with some of the present management but without any of the old companies debts. All perfectly legal. I would anticipate that the new company would see a substantial drop in enrollments, but probably get enough to continue in business.
All possibilities. So why are we left to wonder what is the real reason why the Wcoff has not paid winners? I can't understand why the Wcoff has not kept its customers informed as to what is happening unless Possibility # 3 is the answer. All of this could go away with communication from the company. I have to think the silence means the worst.
Lets hope that I am wrong and they somehow come up with the funds to pay the past winners. I actually made the remark yesterday that I was glad I lost in the Wcoff last year. Can't think of anything worst than to win and not get paid.
I know that I will not be playing in the Wcoff this year regardless of what happens. Customer service of this type doesn't deserve my business. Had this not happened, I would be sending my deposit to play. I handled a number of Chapter 11 cases. I can't imagine advising my clients to not communicate with their customers. When you lose the customers, it doesn't matter what else happens.
Just my two cents. I have no idea of what is really happening. Isn't that the real problem?
John Great list John. The only thing that I thought to add would be that they are working to protect personal assets prior to a bankruptcy and need time to do so. In Indiana you an place a personal home in a spouses name and after 2 years it is protected. They could be buying time to protect their ASSets.
Wayne
Let's review the possible scenario's:
1. The money is there but can't be released for payment to the winners because of a shareholder's concerns or an accounting problem. Both are highly unlikely. In my opinion, the least likely of all possibilities.
2. The Wcoff is trying to reorganize and bring in investors to continue in business. This is a very likely scenario but I can't believe any investors are stupid enough to put money into a company that probably has substantial losses.
3. The Wcoff is trying to delay long enough for the NFL to settle the labor dispute, at which time it is counting on getting enough signups to cover past winners. In this case, we will continue to see delay's from the Wcoff until the labor dispute settles. Then we will see an announcement that they will shortly began sending out more checks.
4. The Wcoff sales its assets to another company for a small fee. All assets are transferred to the new company including the Wcoff name and the Wcoff website. The new company advertises itself out as the new Wcoff and begins to accept applications for the 2011 season. It may or may not offer some credit to the past winners that are owed by the old company. Those winners owe by the old company are simply out of luck. The new company continues with some of the present management but without any of the old companies debts. All perfectly legal. I would anticipate that the new company would see a substantial drop in enrollments, but probably get enough to continue in business.
All possibilities. So why are we left to wonder what is the real reason why the Wcoff has not paid winners? I can't understand why the Wcoff has not kept its customers informed as to what is happening unless Possibility # 3 is the answer. All of this could go away with communication from the company. I have to think the silence means the worst.
Lets hope that I am wrong and they somehow come up with the funds to pay the past winners. I actually made the remark yesterday that I was glad I lost in the Wcoff last year. Can't think of anything worst than to win and not get paid.
I know that I will not be playing in the Wcoff this year regardless of what happens. Customer service of this type doesn't deserve my business. Had this not happened, I would be sending my deposit to play. I handled a number of Chapter 11 cases. I can't imagine advising my clients to not communicate with their customers. When you lose the customers, it doesn't matter what else happens.
Just my two cents. I have no idea of what is really happening. Isn't that the real problem?
John Great list John. The only thing that I thought to add would be that they are working to protect personal assets prior to a bankruptcy and need time to do so. In Indiana you an place a personal home in a spouses name and after 2 years it is protected. They could be buying time to protect their ASSets.
Wayne
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I have been trying to think of a way to protect the players prize money without escrow and while I doubt many of the fantasy football operators would be excited about it, I could see it working.
1. Set aside ALL prize money for each and every league in a separate account from the operating account. Absolutely no co-mingling of the funds.
2. Have a running list of all leagues being operated by the contest with the total prize pool listed next to each league.
3. Give proof of bank funds to a (player board of directors) that shows that the amount in the account matches the total amount of prizes due from the leagues.
It's definitely inconvenient from the operators standpoint but it is a FREE way of providing at least a layer of protection for the players. The other thing it does is that it tells the game operators that there is a problem before it gets so far gone that they can't do anything about it. (Most business keep very poor books.)
The only other possible solution is a graduated grand prize based on the number of sign ups. Greg and Tom have said it won't work from a marketing standpoint but it hasn't really been done yet so I'm not so sure. I know I would feel better about playing in a contest set up this way verses the way it's being done now.
Wayne
1. Set aside ALL prize money for each and every league in a separate account from the operating account. Absolutely no co-mingling of the funds.
2. Have a running list of all leagues being operated by the contest with the total prize pool listed next to each league.
3. Give proof of bank funds to a (player board of directors) that shows that the amount in the account matches the total amount of prizes due from the leagues.
It's definitely inconvenient from the operators standpoint but it is a FREE way of providing at least a layer of protection for the players. The other thing it does is that it tells the game operators that there is a problem before it gets so far gone that they can't do anything about it. (Most business keep very poor books.)
The only other possible solution is a graduated grand prize based on the number of sign ups. Greg and Tom have said it won't work from a marketing standpoint but it hasn't really been done yet so I'm not so sure. I know I would feel better about playing in a contest set up this way verses the way it's being done now.
Wayne
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Coltsfan:
I have been trying to think of a way to protect the players prize money without escrow and while I doubt many of the fantasy football operators would be excited about it, I could see it working.
1. Set aside ALL prize money for each and every league in a separate account from the operating account. Absolutely no co-mingling of the funds.
2. Have a running list of all leagues being operated by the contest with the total prize pool listed next to each league.
3. Give proof of bank funds to a (player board of directors) that shows that the amount in the account matches the total amount of prizes due from the leagues.
It's definitely inconvenient from the operators standpoint but it is a FREE way of providing at least a layer of protection for the players. The other thing it does is that it tells the game operators that there is a problem before it gets so far gone that they can't do anything about it. (Most business keep very poor books.)
The only other possible solution is a graduated grand prize based on the number of sign ups. Greg and Tom have said it won't work from a marketing standpoint but it hasn't really been done yet so I'm not so sure. I know I would feel better about playing in a contest set up this way verses the way it's being done now.
Wayne While a noble idea Wayne (and attempt btw)
Your money isn't safe anywhere these days, if Fannie and Freddie, Lehman brothers etc.. taught us. Hell are 401ks even safe anymore? The dollar is declining every day so it seems.
If you gamble on sportsbooks, they default all the time.
If you play poker online, they default all the time.
In neither scenario do they disclose anything nor do we have a clue who they are.
At the end of the day, you can only make WISE decisions. New contests will have a huge uphill mountain in front of them to climb and as players, we can advise others of what we've seen, heard and experienced. That is transparency and that is all we have these days.
I have been trying to think of a way to protect the players prize money without escrow and while I doubt many of the fantasy football operators would be excited about it, I could see it working.
1. Set aside ALL prize money for each and every league in a separate account from the operating account. Absolutely no co-mingling of the funds.
2. Have a running list of all leagues being operated by the contest with the total prize pool listed next to each league.
3. Give proof of bank funds to a (player board of directors) that shows that the amount in the account matches the total amount of prizes due from the leagues.
It's definitely inconvenient from the operators standpoint but it is a FREE way of providing at least a layer of protection for the players. The other thing it does is that it tells the game operators that there is a problem before it gets so far gone that they can't do anything about it. (Most business keep very poor books.)
The only other possible solution is a graduated grand prize based on the number of sign ups. Greg and Tom have said it won't work from a marketing standpoint but it hasn't really been done yet so I'm not so sure. I know I would feel better about playing in a contest set up this way verses the way it's being done now.
Wayne While a noble idea Wayne (and attempt btw)
Your money isn't safe anywhere these days, if Fannie and Freddie, Lehman brothers etc.. taught us. Hell are 401ks even safe anymore? The dollar is declining every day so it seems.
If you gamble on sportsbooks, they default all the time.
If you play poker online, they default all the time.
In neither scenario do they disclose anything nor do we have a clue who they are.
At the end of the day, you can only make WISE decisions. New contests will have a huge uphill mountain in front of them to climb and as players, we can advise others of what we've seen, heard and experienced. That is transparency and that is all we have these days.
Twitter: @ScottFantasy