What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Great post, Glenn. I'm really not digging what I've been reading lately....not cool on any level....there's ONE place that deserves everyone's mistrust and anger and it's not here or at the FFPC....
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
We certainly realize that anything can happen at big companies and sometimes entrepreneurs are much better at running businesses than big companies. Krause Publications was single-owner owned or employee-owned for 52 years before being sold in 2003. F+W Media was then sold two years later and our fantasy division was sold to Liberty Sports Media in 2009. Nobody saw Fanball being dissolved in 2011 by LSI, but it happened.
But through it all the contest was never a separate LLC and thus the big companies paid in full. And they should have since the games were profitable each time. I'm definitely not pointing fingers at anyone, just stating that it helps to have the financial backing to ensure the prizes and that the buzzword "escrow" isn't any more failproof than having a big financial backer.
At the end of the day, I think this area of the industry is going to be much stronger from the lessons learned in the last few years. I think the contests still standing will continue to be run by the same people and financially backed in the same way. I don't see many more changes coming; I certainly don't see another sale in our future.
It's time to move forward with the contests you can trust and the game operators you can trust. And hopefully all of the customers who still haven't been paid in full will be paid and given the option to trust those games again or move on. Once this labor settlement is reached, I'm convinced that this will be the best fantasy football season ever and most contests will have record-breaking seasons. Let's move forward, guarantee the prizes, make the live events first rate all around and crown the best players in the industry. Oh, and pay on time. All those left in this space must guarantee that and I think they will.
Now let's get back to the business at hand, which is finalizing our Cheat Sheets.
But through it all the contest was never a separate LLC and thus the big companies paid in full. And they should have since the games were profitable each time. I'm definitely not pointing fingers at anyone, just stating that it helps to have the financial backing to ensure the prizes and that the buzzword "escrow" isn't any more failproof than having a big financial backer.
At the end of the day, I think this area of the industry is going to be much stronger from the lessons learned in the last few years. I think the contests still standing will continue to be run by the same people and financially backed in the same way. I don't see many more changes coming; I certainly don't see another sale in our future.
It's time to move forward with the contests you can trust and the game operators you can trust. And hopefully all of the customers who still haven't been paid in full will be paid and given the option to trust those games again or move on. Once this labor settlement is reached, I'm convinced that this will be the best fantasy football season ever and most contests will have record-breaking seasons. Let's move forward, guarantee the prizes, make the live events first rate all around and crown the best players in the industry. Oh, and pay on time. All those left in this space must guarantee that and I think they will.
Now let's get back to the business at hand, which is finalizing our Cheat Sheets.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I agree with Glenn.....no reason to pick on NFFC or FFPC.
BOTH have points which are better than the other, but one thing is for sure, they BOTH are outstanding when it comes to customer service.
Have a great 4th of July everyone.....heading back to the beach!
BOTH have points which are better than the other, but one thing is for sure, they BOTH are outstanding when it comes to customer service.
Have a great 4th of July everyone.....heading back to the beach!
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
John, I meant to copy and paste your post and instead wrote over it. I think I have copied it all here. Sorry for that miscue:
This is from the Yellow Line is Unofficial:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I think "escrow" is the new buzz word in our industry, but how it's being escrowed is more important than just saying some prizes are escrowed.
How escrow should work:
An independent and trusted third party receives money from the high stakes fantasy contest and holds it until the season is over and winners are identified. The independent 3rd party disperses the money directly to the winners.
Curious if companies that are (or will be) advertising "escrow" actually follow that. if the high stakes fantasy companies have access to the money during the season or after the season, there is nothing preventing them from "taking the money and running", ie, hoodwinking the fantasy community on how they are using the term "escrow"
Mark, the escrow topic has been brought up by others, too, and it's an interesting one. Honestly, it's unfortunate that this area of our industry has been damaged by unscrupulous game operators to the point that there seems to be a need for companies to escrow the funds. We now are at a point where customers only feel good about a contest when they hear the word escrow, not even knowing all of the details behind the escrow. They just want ASSURANCE now, any type of assurance.
But here's the only real assurance: Can the company backing any high-stakes fantasy game pay the prizes EVEN BEFORE ANY SIGNUPS COME IN? This is the question that should be asked by the players. Are the game operators and the company backing each game financially sound enough to escrow the money BEFORE entries come in? That should be the standard going forward, not a statement that someone will take the entry fees in and then escrow that money for prizes.
Why do I say that? Because it's easy for anyone to say they are guaranteeing prizes based on x amount of entries. And it's easy to escrow that money once it comes in, even if it's just a portion of that money. It looks safe and it looks good, but if prizes are based on $1 million in entries and you only get in $700,000 and all of that is escrowed, what happens to the other $300,000 that is owed? Obviously the game operators have to dig into their pockets for the rest and if they don't have it then it doesn't matter if the total was escrowed or not; there still isn't enough to pay off all of the winners. Granted, maybe the game operators have enough personal wealth to pay off the remaining $300,000, but again that's the key. Knowing the financial strength of the backers of each contest is more important than paying a third party to hold onto the money.
Every contest should be able to back up the prizes before taking entries or trouble could lie ahead. But that doesn't always happen in our space because the biggest companies aren't in HSFF where the profit margins are extremely slim, so it's left up to entrepreneurs to guarantee hundreds of thousands of dollars in prizes. And history has shown that once they get started, expenses build up and they try to get too big and bad things can happen to consumers. It certainly doesn't have to end that way, but our road is certainly littered with game operators who couldn't manage expenses above revenue and good customers got hurt in the process.
I'm all for ensuring that prizes are paid no matter how we have to do it, but escrowing revenue after it comes in isn't fail-proof. In 2004 when we started the NFBC and NFFC we could have escrowed every penny that came in and we still would have been tens of thousands of dollars short. Thankfully we were backed by a huge company in Krause Publications and they paid in full, knowing that this was an expense for an upstart project. It was like an acquisition cost and by 2005 both contests were profitable and each contest has been profitable every year since 2005. But it's still good to know that the NFBC and NFFC are backed by an even bigger company in STATS LLC, which has the backing of News Corp and the Associated Press. There isn't any loss from our contest that we couldn't cover, although we'll never make our grand prizes too high to force us into that situation.
That is another key to this whole mess. You can escrow all revenue once it comes in, but if your stated prize pool is too high you still might not have enough after expenses to pay the bills. So game operators can't overshoot when guaranteeing the overall prize pool, although we have seen that this is the biggest problem in HSFF.
"Escrow" is the new buzz word here because it's needed in some cases. Some companies definitely need to show their customers that paying a fee to a third party to hold onto their entry fees will guarantee payment at season's end. I don't think it does guarantee that entirely, but it's a good first step. Still, if they those companies could show that they have the funds to finance all of the prizes BEFORE any revenue comes in, that would be an even better step in the right direction. Then everyone would know that no matter how bold the plan, this big company can pay in full and on time.
You seem to be saying, without saying that I should only play with the NFFC because Stats/Fox/ApPhas alot of money.
Your last sentence of "Then everyone would know that no matter how bold the plan, this big company can pay in full and on time." is intresting to me on a couple of levels.
1. How did the association with Fanball/Liberty Media do in getting everybody paid on time.
2.Several places you have talked about bold plans and not getting the required signups to cover your prize structure. I have read these as a shot at the FFPC's new prize structure and the number of players needed to cover it.
Let's compare:
The FFPC started in 2008, They almost doubled in size in the first three years. Last year the aligned with FBG to run a contest that drew over 1500 entries. This year the incresed league prizes to 10,000 and the Grand prize to 200,000. Their stated goal are 660 entries. In spite of a lockout they have deposits on over 330 of those teams putting them over 50% of their goal.
The NFFC started in 2004 and I'm not sure it has managed to double in 7 years despite being alligned with Krause, NBC/Rotoworld, Fanball/Liberty Media and Stats. Your two contests have lowere league prizes and 100,000 grand prize both of you contests have stated goall in the 300s you have about 65 people signed up putting you less than 25% of you stated goals.
Who's plan is more bold?.
I didn't come in here to bash the NFFC. In fact I look forward to playing here this year. However I'm starting to see how Gambler felt on the FFPC boards. They have run a good contest and have been the first to pay every year. I look forward to playing there as well.
[ July 04, 2011, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: The Yellow Line is Unofficial ]
This is from the Yellow Line is Unofficial:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
I think "escrow" is the new buzz word in our industry, but how it's being escrowed is more important than just saying some prizes are escrowed.
How escrow should work:
An independent and trusted third party receives money from the high stakes fantasy contest and holds it until the season is over and winners are identified. The independent 3rd party disperses the money directly to the winners.
Curious if companies that are (or will be) advertising "escrow" actually follow that. if the high stakes fantasy companies have access to the money during the season or after the season, there is nothing preventing them from "taking the money and running", ie, hoodwinking the fantasy community on how they are using the term "escrow"
Mark, the escrow topic has been brought up by others, too, and it's an interesting one. Honestly, it's unfortunate that this area of our industry has been damaged by unscrupulous game operators to the point that there seems to be a need for companies to escrow the funds. We now are at a point where customers only feel good about a contest when they hear the word escrow, not even knowing all of the details behind the escrow. They just want ASSURANCE now, any type of assurance.
But here's the only real assurance: Can the company backing any high-stakes fantasy game pay the prizes EVEN BEFORE ANY SIGNUPS COME IN? This is the question that should be asked by the players. Are the game operators and the company backing each game financially sound enough to escrow the money BEFORE entries come in? That should be the standard going forward, not a statement that someone will take the entry fees in and then escrow that money for prizes.
Why do I say that? Because it's easy for anyone to say they are guaranteeing prizes based on x amount of entries. And it's easy to escrow that money once it comes in, even if it's just a portion of that money. It looks safe and it looks good, but if prizes are based on $1 million in entries and you only get in $700,000 and all of that is escrowed, what happens to the other $300,000 that is owed? Obviously the game operators have to dig into their pockets for the rest and if they don't have it then it doesn't matter if the total was escrowed or not; there still isn't enough to pay off all of the winners. Granted, maybe the game operators have enough personal wealth to pay off the remaining $300,000, but again that's the key. Knowing the financial strength of the backers of each contest is more important than paying a third party to hold onto the money.
Every contest should be able to back up the prizes before taking entries or trouble could lie ahead. But that doesn't always happen in our space because the biggest companies aren't in HSFF where the profit margins are extremely slim, so it's left up to entrepreneurs to guarantee hundreds of thousands of dollars in prizes. And history has shown that once they get started, expenses build up and they try to get too big and bad things can happen to consumers. It certainly doesn't have to end that way, but our road is certainly littered with game operators who couldn't manage expenses above revenue and good customers got hurt in the process.
I'm all for ensuring that prizes are paid no matter how we have to do it, but escrowing revenue after it comes in isn't fail-proof. In 2004 when we started the NFBC and NFFC we could have escrowed every penny that came in and we still would have been tens of thousands of dollars short. Thankfully we were backed by a huge company in Krause Publications and they paid in full, knowing that this was an expense for an upstart project. It was like an acquisition cost and by 2005 both contests were profitable and each contest has been profitable every year since 2005. But it's still good to know that the NFBC and NFFC are backed by an even bigger company in STATS LLC, which has the backing of News Corp and the Associated Press. There isn't any loss from our contest that we couldn't cover, although we'll never make our grand prizes too high to force us into that situation.
That is another key to this whole mess. You can escrow all revenue once it comes in, but if your stated prize pool is too high you still might not have enough after expenses to pay the bills. So game operators can't overshoot when guaranteeing the overall prize pool, although we have seen that this is the biggest problem in HSFF.
"Escrow" is the new buzz word here because it's needed in some cases. Some companies definitely need to show their customers that paying a fee to a third party to hold onto their entry fees will guarantee payment at season's end. I don't think it does guarantee that entirely, but it's a good first step. Still, if they those companies could show that they have the funds to finance all of the prizes BEFORE any revenue comes in, that would be an even better step in the right direction. Then everyone would know that no matter how bold the plan, this big company can pay in full and on time.
You seem to be saying, without saying that I should only play with the NFFC because Stats/Fox/ApPhas alot of money.
Your last sentence of "Then everyone would know that no matter how bold the plan, this big company can pay in full and on time." is intresting to me on a couple of levels.
1. How did the association with Fanball/Liberty Media do in getting everybody paid on time.
2.Several places you have talked about bold plans and not getting the required signups to cover your prize structure. I have read these as a shot at the FFPC's new prize structure and the number of players needed to cover it.
Let's compare:
The FFPC started in 2008, They almost doubled in size in the first three years. Last year the aligned with FBG to run a contest that drew over 1500 entries. This year the incresed league prizes to 10,000 and the Grand prize to 200,000. Their stated goal are 660 entries. In spite of a lockout they have deposits on over 330 of those teams putting them over 50% of their goal.
The NFFC started in 2004 and I'm not sure it has managed to double in 7 years despite being alligned with Krause, NBC/Rotoworld, Fanball/Liberty Media and Stats. Your two contests have lowere league prizes and 100,000 grand prize both of you contests have stated goall in the 300s you have about 65 people signed up putting you less than 25% of you stated goals.
Who's plan is more bold?.
I didn't come in here to bash the NFFC. In fact I look forward to playing here this year. However I'm starting to see how Gambler felt on the FFPC boards. They have run a good contest and have been the first to pay every year. I look forward to playing there as well.
[ July 04, 2011, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: The Yellow Line is Unofficial ]
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
John, nobody needs to pit one contest against the other. If both are run well and both have sound structures and both pay on time, both will excel. I certainly hope both do. Again, we've played in the FFPC and Alex and Dave have played in the NFFC before. Nobody is looking to bash these two contests.
No shots at anyone by me, just stating that escrows are cool but to see that on the WCOFF boards and that folks are getting excited by THOSE funds being escrowed when last year's prizes still aren't paid is what made me make this post. People are excited that Jill said this year's prizes would be escrowed and I'm asking if that means they won't be used to pay last year's prizes. So you took my reference the wrong way, although I am saying that escrows aren't the end-all solution to our problems in the HSFF space.
As for Fanball, the payments were paid at the end of February, later than the NFFC paid under KP/F+W, but in a time frame that they say they always paid all of their contest winners. I can't speak for all of the reasoning for that; all I can say is that the NFFC paid in January in the past and we'll do the same again this year, with league winners getting paid before then.
Stay well and good luck in all the games you play in this year.
No shots at anyone by me, just stating that escrows are cool but to see that on the WCOFF boards and that folks are getting excited by THOSE funds being escrowed when last year's prizes still aren't paid is what made me make this post. People are excited that Jill said this year's prizes would be escrowed and I'm asking if that means they won't be used to pay last year's prizes. So you took my reference the wrong way, although I am saying that escrows aren't the end-all solution to our problems in the HSFF space.
As for Fanball, the payments were paid at the end of February, later than the NFFC paid under KP/F+W, but in a time frame that they say they always paid all of their contest winners. I can't speak for all of the reasoning for that; all I can say is that the NFFC paid in January in the past and we'll do the same again this year, with league winners getting paid before then.
Stay well and good luck in all the games you play in this year.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I have complete and total trust in both the FFPC and the NFFC. I have zero doubt that both contests are run by honest operators who WILL pay the winners in a timely fashion, as they always have. I have no hesitation in handing thousands of dollars in entry fees to both contests and I'm 100% certain the winners will be fully paid in a timely fashion.
That being said, am I missing something with this escrow business? When players hear that the prize money is "in escrow", the REASONABLE assumption is that this money is somehow legally safeguarded and that an unscrupulous game operator could not access that cash for other reasons. If that's not the case, then tossing the word "escrow" around is misleading and it creates a false impression, IMO.
Game operators can "take steps in the right direction" all they want. It appears to me that the the current use of "escrow" as I understand it provides absolutely zero legal protection or guarantees to the players, so what good is it other than a marketing tool?
If I'm misinformed or if I misstated the facts, please correct me. I'm really trying to understand this.
Thanks.
That being said, am I missing something with this escrow business? When players hear that the prize money is "in escrow", the REASONABLE assumption is that this money is somehow legally safeguarded and that an unscrupulous game operator could not access that cash for other reasons. If that's not the case, then tossing the word "escrow" around is misleading and it creates a false impression, IMO.
Game operators can "take steps in the right direction" all they want. It appears to me that the the current use of "escrow" as I understand it provides absolutely zero legal protection or guarantees to the players, so what good is it other than a marketing tool?
If I'm misinformed or if I misstated the facts, please correct me. I'm really trying to understand this.
Thanks.
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Glenneration X:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Glenn, I know this subject has been debated long enough on these boards, but I think people should realize there are two aspects about "prize rollovers" that should concern us all. One is the legal aspect of them and whether they are legal or not and the second aspect is transparency from the game operators. Let's look at both here.
Is it legal for game operators to allow prize rollovers and not report those winnings to the IRS? That's up for interpretation, according to some people. Some people say they have a legal opinion that taxes aren't owed until cash winnings are received in hand in full, thus allowing the rollovers until the game operator actually pays in cash. It's possible that's true. All I know is that I've asked four different sets of corporate lawyers and all four would not allow this practice to take place, stating that winnings are taxable in the year that the winnings are earned.
Greg, in last year's post-NFBC season 500 page debate on this issue, I looked up and found the following (quoted directly from my post during that thread)......
"....... I then went to the IRS.gov website and read their own instructions regarding this form.
There they note that "the payment of winnings is considered made when actually paid". They also offer both a Schedule C and Schedule C-EZ form which is specifically provided to list deductible expenses so that net income is what is taxed, not gross. "
This is from the IRS's own website and I don't know how much more clear it can be.
Regarding your 2nd issue about operators being able to allow customers to roll over funds indefinately and therefore never actually having to pay out the prizes, I believe that to be a different issue that goes to the moral compass of whatever company allows rollovers. However regarding the legality, it seems pretty clear. [/QUOTE]Glenn
In my dealings with the IRS over past 25 years as a CPA, this is the interpretation the IRS has taken;
"Paid" does not necessarily mean having cash in your hand. If you win and decide to roll it over and keep it in your account, you have effectively been "paid". The fact that you did not receive a check, cash it ,and send it back does not matter.
The IRS then expects the providers to issue a 1099 regardless. I dont know if many follow that rule though. If you receive a 1099MISC, you may deduct all related entry fees, expenses on your return.
The IRS pays attention to "constructively" earned income. This has been their position in my dealings. you may encounter IRS who differ, and you may hear differently from other tax professionals.
I dont imagine 1099's are a reason why rolling over funds is offered at all. In fact, when the WCFF mentioned this as an option, it became the first warning sign to me
[ July 04, 2011, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Old School ]
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
Glenn, I know this subject has been debated long enough on these boards, but I think people should realize there are two aspects about "prize rollovers" that should concern us all. One is the legal aspect of them and whether they are legal or not and the second aspect is transparency from the game operators. Let's look at both here.
Is it legal for game operators to allow prize rollovers and not report those winnings to the IRS? That's up for interpretation, according to some people. Some people say they have a legal opinion that taxes aren't owed until cash winnings are received in hand in full, thus allowing the rollovers until the game operator actually pays in cash. It's possible that's true. All I know is that I've asked four different sets of corporate lawyers and all four would not allow this practice to take place, stating that winnings are taxable in the year that the winnings are earned.
Greg, in last year's post-NFBC season 500 page debate on this issue, I looked up and found the following (quoted directly from my post during that thread)......
"....... I then went to the IRS.gov website and read their own instructions regarding this form.
There they note that "the payment of winnings is considered made when actually paid". They also offer both a Schedule C and Schedule C-EZ form which is specifically provided to list deductible expenses so that net income is what is taxed, not gross. "
This is from the IRS's own website and I don't know how much more clear it can be.
Regarding your 2nd issue about operators being able to allow customers to roll over funds indefinately and therefore never actually having to pay out the prizes, I believe that to be a different issue that goes to the moral compass of whatever company allows rollovers. However regarding the legality, it seems pretty clear. [/QUOTE]Glenn
In my dealings with the IRS over past 25 years as a CPA, this is the interpretation the IRS has taken;
"Paid" does not necessarily mean having cash in your hand. If you win and decide to roll it over and keep it in your account, you have effectively been "paid". The fact that you did not receive a check, cash it ,and send it back does not matter.
The IRS then expects the providers to issue a 1099 regardless. I dont know if many follow that rule though. If you receive a 1099MISC, you may deduct all related entry fees, expenses on your return.
The IRS pays attention to "constructively" earned income. This has been their position in my dealings. you may encounter IRS who differ, and you may hear differently from other tax professionals.
I dont imagine 1099's are a reason why rolling over funds is offered at all. In fact, when the WCFF mentioned this as an option, it became the first warning sign to me
[ July 04, 2011, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Old School ]
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
I agree with Shrink. Take "escrow" out of the picture. The NFFC and FFPC has always paid me in a timely fashion. One quicker than the other, but both in a timely manner.
All parties considering playing in either should go forward with confidence in my opinion.
Each event is unique and interesting in its own way.
What I am concerned with is getting a dang CBA! Let's get this thing going! I need a distraction from my work!!!
All parties considering playing in either should go forward with confidence in my opinion.
Each event is unique and interesting in its own way.
What I am concerned with is getting a dang CBA! Let's get this thing going! I need a distraction from my work!!!
2008- Didn't finish last overall in the Classic.
2009- Didn't finish last overall in the Classic or Primetime.
2009- Didn't finish last overall in the Classic or Primetime.
What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Forget the NFL. Joey Chestnuts just ate 62 hotdogs in 10 minutes to win the Nathan's contest in Coney Island AGAIN. If we have a fantasy hotdog eating contest, Joey Chestnuts' ADP is ONE.
*Ranked #1 Average Fantasy Football Player in the Nation 2004-2013
"Fantasy sports are all about LUCK. Except when I win."
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What Is Going To Happen To High-Stakes Fantasy Football?
Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
That being said, am I missing something with this escrow business? When players hear that the prize money is "in escrow", the REASONABLE assumption is that this money is somehow legally safeguarded and that an unscrupulous game operator could not access that cash for other reasons. If that's not the case, then tossing the word "escrow" around is misleading and it creates a false impression, IMO.
Game operators can "take steps in the right direction" all they want. It appears to me that the the current use of "escrow" as I understand it provides absolutely zero legal protection or guarantees to the players, so what good is it other than a marketing tool?
If I'm misinformed or if I misstated the facts, please correct me. I'm really trying to understand this.
Thanks. paul - i agree with you. if the game operators have access to the money during or after the season, "escrow" really just seems like a marketing tool with no real protection to the players.
That being said, am I missing something with this escrow business? When players hear that the prize money is "in escrow", the REASONABLE assumption is that this money is somehow legally safeguarded and that an unscrupulous game operator could not access that cash for other reasons. If that's not the case, then tossing the word "escrow" around is misleading and it creates a false impression, IMO.
Game operators can "take steps in the right direction" all they want. It appears to me that the the current use of "escrow" as I understand it provides absolutely zero legal protection or guarantees to the players, so what good is it other than a marketing tool?
If I'm misinformed or if I misstated the facts, please correct me. I'm really trying to understand this.
Thanks. paul - i agree with you. if the game operators have access to the money during or after the season, "escrow" really just seems like a marketing tool with no real protection to the players.